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Frozen (Disney film)

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C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18876: Apr 8th 2020 at 3:24:46 AM

[up] Thanks, I must have managed to miss when it was discussed here (not an easy task since I tend to hawkishly watch this thread).

Then I can say without hesitation that this scene (without the references to the castle being destroyed) would have made a much better ending than what we got, in my opinion. At least Elsa gives a reason for why she wants to leave, and Anna acknowledges and supports it. In the film, Elsa says she wants to stay, Anna smiles... and that's it. We have no inkling as to how Anna feels about this whole thing, apart from the fact that she's still smiling some time later when writing to Elsa.

I am now definitively headcanoning this scene as the proper ending of the film. Helps a lot to get over the bittersweet taste the film ending left me with.

Edited by C105 on Apr 8th 2020 at 12:28:46 PM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
yayoyo57 Since: Feb, 2020
#18877: Apr 8th 2020 at 3:25:50 AM

[up][up]Everyone saw Ahtohallan changed Elsa in the movie, very obviously, it didnt need to be said by Elsa again. And in the deleted scene, she just felt that forest and spirits may need her, it was not a soild reason.

Just like what I said before, the time limitation of movie makes some unimportant scenes be cut, showing parents statues to Anna was unimportant in the thought of movie maker, I think it's because the parents statues already appeared in the movie several times, they didnt want repeat use it again in the ending.

Also, in the end of frozen 1, Elsa didnt tell anything about the reason of closing gate to Anna, they explained it on some canon books. So, showing Anna statues can be also illustrated in other books or shorts, it was unimportant for the whole story.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18878: Apr 8th 2020 at 5:20:14 AM

Elsa not explaining onscreen to Anna why they closed the gates is not important because the viewers knew the reasons, while the memories of their parents were something new, and that also answered one of the big questions remaining after the first movie (why did they never tell Anna the truth). It's sad the writers decided this was unimportant to show. As of now, the ending really feels to me as if Anna's feelings did not matter much to the writers as long as she gets a new dress.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
yayoyo57 Since: Feb, 2020
#18879: Apr 8th 2020 at 6:11:17 AM

[up]I think they didnt do that(explain why parents didnt tell Anna truth), it is because it was not the key topic of forzen 2. The key topics of forzen 2 were the source of Elsa's magic and the growth of characters, not the parents and what they did.

Why parents decided to close the door and why they hid the truth to Anna were very old topic, fans already talked about it 6 years, also developed many different theories, each theory had its own logic, the movie makers didnt need to retalk the old arguments.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#18880: Apr 8th 2020 at 6:12:01 AM

It feels like the whole story was told with the first Frozen, and Frozen II is just an expansion pack. None of the new characters have much to do, even a lot of the old characters get sidelined. The newbies like Ryder and Matthias have very little memorable about them, even in comparison to minor characters from the first movie like Oaken and the Duke of Weselton.

It just feels like it’s all on autopilot. In the first movie, Anna and Kristoff fell for each other, so this time around they get engaged. Let’s add some diversity, I guess, and a politically correct message that doesn’t really fit with the setting established in the first movie. Some new cute critters, a bunch of references to the first movie (to the point that it feels as if even Anna and Elsa would rather be watching the first one), some action sequences, some songs, yeah, yeah...this all seems good enough for government work. No real spark or inspiration, just whatever will fill up 90 minutes. We’ll give Elsa some gay subtext because people liked that, but just enough to be deniable. We’ll talk a lot about how the characters have changed, even though they don’t really change that much.

At the end of the movie, they literally haven’t changed at all, except now they know that their dead grandfather who they never talk about and have never even met was a racist. Yeah, big whoop. Then we send Elsa off to do...stuff...with the spirits, and now, oh, Anna is Queen. What exactly is Elsa doing all day? Is she ruling the Northuldra, who already have a leader? Is she just hanging out in Ahtohollan all day? That doesn’t sound right–all this bridge business seems like something she could do while still being Queen. I guess the spirits just imposed her abdication and Anna’s coronation on everyone? And they also aren’t all that powerful and they picked a really peevish, dangerous way to go about getting what they wanted (what with tricking the people of Arendelle into evacuating). They cause a lot more problems than they solve. Hell, maybe Runeard was right about these guys. Let’s hear the guy out. They did stuff an innocent child full of dangerous magic. That’s a dick move.

Man, if we’re going to spend half this movie on lore, maybe the lore should make sense.


Speaking of the ending, I have to bring back up something I mentioned many months ago, which is the optics of how this looked to the people of Arendelle. Y'know, the populace that were pretty much in the dark about everything that was going on in the enchanted forest. As far as they're concerned, they saw a giant wall of water come rushing down the fjord, deadset on destroying their homes, only to be stopped by the woman they still viewed as their queen. It's hard to imagine a way that they would be willing to accept Elsa abdicating and Anna becoming queen. Not without a lot of hard questions as to why she destroyed the dam.

Okey Dokey!
BrightLight from the Southern Water Tribe. Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#18881: Apr 9th 2020 at 1:24:09 AM

"Every one of [humans are] bad except you."
— Kristoff, Reindeers are Better than People

Heh. Ironic that Kristoff is probably the worst-written good guy in both movies. He's just... bland and annoying.

I was ambivalent about this suggestion earlier, but now I agree that giving him Northuldra roots instead of the sisters would've forced the writers to craft something new and thus give Frozen 2 some real inspiration.

Edited by BrightLight on Apr 9th 2020 at 8:25:13 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#18882: Apr 9th 2020 at 1:31:13 AM

They backed away from giving Kristoff a plot with real stakes. An arc where his and Anna's relationship has genuinely hit a rocky point and they're evaluating whether they're actually ready to spend their entire lives together would be capable of some heavy pathos, but instead the obstacle between him and Anna is just a farcical misunderstanding that's easily cleared up in 2 seconds.

It's kinda hilarious that this movie left me feeling more chemistry between Kristoff and the Ryder dude he talked to for five minutes than his actual wife. [lol] Maybe that should’ve been the plot; Kristoff and Anna coming to accept they no longer work together and choose to be just friends, and Kristoff starts trying out this boyfriend deal.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Apr 9th 2020 at 1:52:12 AM

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18883: Apr 9th 2020 at 1:38:01 AM

[up][up] I don't entirely agree. Kristoff had a character arc of sorts in the first movie, gradually falling for Anna and revealing his good heart underneath his coarse exterior. But he switches to comic relief by the end of the film when Anna drives him into a lamppost, and has not left this role since (including the shorts).

[up][up][up] The people of Arendelle are very little characterisation overall, and that carries over from the first film. They are some sort of silent Greek chorus, who is mainly there to gasp with fright when the situation becomes serious and cheer when it is resolved. Ironically enough, the most characterisation they received was in Olaf's Frozen Adventure. So, if Anna comes back and explains that everything is solved and that she is Queen now, they will probably simply cheer.
Seriously though, this is really not what bothers me the most. The sisters did not seem to have maintained a high level of secrecy around their state affairs, so Anna probably simply told the truth, and they understood (helped by some of them reuniting with their long lost relatives).

Edited by C105 on Apr 9th 2020 at 10:38:13 AM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
BrightLight from the Southern Water Tribe. Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#18884: Apr 9th 2020 at 2:00:59 AM

[up] Kristoff had a character arc of sorts in the first movie. Of sorts.

His coarse exterior isn't explained very well, and most of his romance with Anna is raced through with that "F**ker Upper" song.

Seriously, f**k that song. That's got to be the worst thing about the first movie.

They backed away from giving Kristoff a plot with real stakes. An arc where his and Anna's relationship has genuinely hit a rocky point and they're evaluating whether they're actually ready to spend their entire lives together would be capable of some heavy pathos, but instead the obstacle between him and Anna is just a farcical misunderstanding that's easily cleared up in 2 seconds.

Heck, keep Runeard murdering the Northuldran leader, and have that be a source of conflict between Kristoff and Anna.

Rewrite Runeard's massacre to link to Kristoff being separated from his family (which honestly, did come out of left field in the first movie), and there's a genuine source of conflict there.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18885: Apr 9th 2020 at 2:18:38 AM

Even though I agree that "Fixer-Upper" was not the best song of the first movie, I didn't think it was there that their romance was developed. I thought the way Kristoff gradually warms up to Anna throughout the course of their time together was rather sweet and not too rushed up. If anything, it's Anna whose side of the romance was underdeveloped, since her progression could be more or less reduced to "Love Hans. Hans does not love me but Kristoff does? Love Kristoff".

I think the main reason Kristoff got the short end of the stick in Frozen 2 was simply that the writers wanted to focus more on the sisters. And, strangely enough given that I had been strongly in favour of the focus on the sisters relationships at the expense of everything else, I now find that they may have gone too far in that direction. The world outside of the sisters is so undeveloped that it now feels two-dimensional, and the fact that the ending is not very kind to the sisters relationship does not help.

Edited by C105 on Apr 9th 2020 at 11:19:08 AM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Rorian Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine
#18886: Apr 9th 2020 at 3:43:17 AM

Based on on Kristoffs regular outfit he is a Sami. The Sami peoples is what the Northuldra is based on

Edited by Rorian on Apr 9th 2020 at 12:50:31 PM

Cupcakes are coming, Darling!!
yayoyo57 Since: Feb, 2020
#18887: Apr 9th 2020 at 5:56:02 AM

The character arc of kritsoff was a historical problem, and now this character become a burden for Frozen series.

Absolutely they didnt consider much about Kristoff'arc in frozen 1, it was because kristoff just made as a trap to mislead audience to think he was Anna's true love, all the movie makers set to Kristoff were making smoke screens. who would want to make character arc for a smoke screen?

Kristoff in frozen 1 worked as a mirror to Hans, but after frozen 1, there was no Hans anymore, so He became a extra man in the story.

There are three main character in frozen series, Elsa and Anna are sisters, Olaf was made by them, they have strong connections with each other, while Kristoff just has link with Anna, he cannot integrate into the group of Elsa, Anna and Olaf.

If Anna was the only one core charater in the story, the situation would be better for kristoff. However, just like what I said before, it was a historical problem:

The movie makers didnt want to make a sequel when they made frozen 1, so they gave a simple and hasty ending for Anna and Kristoff including their love relationship.

The movie makers didnt anticipate Elsa become sooooooo popular around the world, they had to improve the screen time for Elsa and compress other characters. It is commercial consideration, every time when you talk the frozen 2, you should know the main reason of making frozen 2 was commercial.

Based on it the most awkward one was kristoff, who had less connection with Elsa (They didnt even talk with each other in frozen 1).

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18888: Apr 9th 2020 at 6:54:37 AM

[up][up] I actually learned about the Sami after watching Frozen, since I had read that Kristoff was wearing a Sami outfit. They seem to have dropped this in Frozen 2, though, unless the Sami do exist in the Frozen universe but are different from the Northuldran.

It occurs to me that Kristoff discovering and exploring his Sami heritage would make an interesting subplot for him in ~megaeliz proposed rewrite.

Edited by C105 on Apr 9th 2020 at 3:54:49 PM

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
yayoyo57 Since: Feb, 2020
#18889: Apr 9th 2020 at 7:21:40 AM

[up][up][up]If you said Kristoff is Northuldra just based on his clothes, that every ice man appeared in frozen 1 can be Northuldra, notice that all ice men weared same style clothes.

Rorian Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: Halfway to Pon Farr
Dark Lord of Falun Copper Mine
#18890: Apr 9th 2020 at 8:42:07 AM

Well his clothes in first movie is very Sami inspired and the Northuldra is based on Sami, it may exist different groups and Northuldra is one of them and Kristoff belong to another.

Cupcakes are coming, Darling!!
Bornstellar Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#18891: Apr 10th 2020 at 1:05:59 AM

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that Kristoff's lack of "star prescence" is part of the reason why Elsanna is semi-popular.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#18892: Apr 10th 2020 at 2:10:58 AM

All I really remember about Kristoff is him being gross. XD;

The Protomen enhanced my life.
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18893: Apr 10th 2020 at 2:36:10 AM

I don't think he shared a carrot with Sven in Frozen 2 (he got some Not What It Looks Like moment with him when rehearsing his proposal). He got really Flanderised in Olaf's Frozen Adventure.

I like Kristoff, but storywise he had only two uses: present a contrast with Hans and offer Anna a Sadistic Choice between saving herself or her sister in the climax of Frozen (without Kristoff she would not have had to hesitate before trying to save Elsa). After that, the writers did not bother to find a new character arc for him since they chose to focus on the sisters (something I agree with, by the way, but they may have gone too far), and he appears as a Flat Character as a result.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
yayoyo57 Since: Feb, 2020
#18894: Apr 10th 2020 at 2:49:41 AM

[up]Kristoff is already useless now, maybe we will rarely see him in the future frozen related series, a very clearly signal that here is less merchandises about him everywhere. In frozen 1, he even had single limited doll, but now, it are few goods of him in disney shop.

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18895: Apr 10th 2020 at 2:54:56 AM

[up] I'm not an expert in Disney merchandising, but isn't that the case of every Disney Princess love interest anyway? I'm not sure I've seen a lot of merchandising featuring Eugene or Eric, for instance. Usually the Princess and the cute Non-Human Sidekick get most of the share.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
yayoyo57 Since: Feb, 2020
#18896: Apr 10th 2020 at 3:07:27 AM

[up]Of course the male characters are not the main selling goods in disney shop, but I compared him with himself in frozen 1, not pets or girls, which means his merchandises become less than himself before.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#18897: Apr 10th 2020 at 4:39:37 AM

> Yeah, I'm of the opinion that Kristoff's lack of "star prescence" is part of the reason why Elsanna is semi-popular.

Not even splitting the sisters up stops the Elsanna shippers,goddamn it

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18898: Apr 10th 2020 at 4:44:48 AM

Honeymaren has been more effective at thinning the flow of Elsanna, but not by much.

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.
Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Lucky Seven
#18899: Apr 10th 2020 at 6:29:24 AM

All I really remember about Kristoff is him being gross. XD;

Especially in Olaf's Frozen Adventure. XD

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#18900: Apr 10th 2020 at 7:17:44 AM

[up] Kristof was flanderized to the point of being OOC in that short. He could not even understand what Sven was saying...

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.

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