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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2401: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:02:20 AM

^This. Nobody's interested in moderator decisions going well. Most people only do notice the occasional blunder, but this isn't really representative of moderation as a whole - it isn't perfect after all and you have to count everything, not just the notable examples.

That being said, I think the transparency problem that we are mentioning here is simply that you can notice a forum ban only by the undesirable side effects, so to speak - disrupted conversations or forum games that are orphaned of a critical member. But I really doon't know how to fix that - other than by making the appeal process public or making a ban list for all non-troll bans.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2402: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:11:22 AM

I don't think it's something confined to tv tropes. Pointing out the fallacies or complaints on something tends to happen more naturally than praise or endorsement.

I hear there's an issue on people not bothering to holler because they think the mods will not take action. I'm not sure what to make of that. I'm not one to holler very often, because I found it intimidating and didn't want to bother anyone at first, but so far, none of my hollers have gone unanswered. Then again, I don't go to OTC or RP where drama supposedly takes place.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
ThatHuman someone from someplace Since: Jun, 2010
someone
#2403: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:14:40 AM

The fact that things go right a majority of the time, does not change the fact that it can go wrong on occasion. Actually, when things go right often, it makes any mistakes and such stand out more.

That being said, I think complaints are generally towards any specific mistakes rather than "moderation is overall bad".

something
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#2404: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:17:23 AM

Let me say that, overall, I'm generally pleased with the way mods do business here. I don't agree with every mod decision here, and I think a few policies we've accepted are terrible ideas, but it isn't something I begrudge.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2405: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:24:04 AM

As for unanswered Hollers, do note that a Holler isn't automatically supposed to result in an action, let alone the one you wanted. It is entirely possible for someone engaging in a personal attack to report someone responding civilly, expecting that the civil person would be thumped, only to find that the mods have thumped the troper who did the Hollering.

We read every Holler and we always check it out, but it's pretty common that after looking at it and possibly talking about it with the other mods, we come to the conclusion that no action is needed.

I guess we could make it a point to PM the person who did the Holler more often in cases where we don't take action, but I for one have sometimes been answered "If you didn't do anything, then why did you PM me?", which shows that some people don't want to know if we didn't act on the Holler.

So there's some balance here that we need to find, and it's a work in progress, as is the forum itself.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2406: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:29:33 AM

^If you want to Pm a person that made a holler, please mind that not all replies should go to a PM rather than a post in the thread in question.

Personally, I've used the hollers mostly to ask for discussion page moves, crowner calls and hookings and the like. Only twice for actual rules stuff - one in december of last year in the Edit Banned thread for off-topicness and one yesterday in an IP thread for rudeness. Both posts were thumped afterwards, which for me was a sufficient "reply" to the holler.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2407: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:36:54 AM

Yes, your distaste for unnecessary PMs is well known among the mods. We know that you make very many (entirely useful) Hollers every day on practical issues that indeed do not require a response outside of the action we take on the page in question.

Someone who Hollers about a perceived violation, however, probably would normally want to know if their Holler wasn't actually necessary, and we usually respond to those with a PM if there's no action that would serve as an acknowledgment that we've received and reacted to the Holler. (So what I said earlier was about how we perhaps should send more PMs out to people who Holler when we don't act on it.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
ThatHuman someone from someplace Since: Jun, 2010
someone
#2408: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:39:06 AM

I think I have received a few PMs going "there wasn't really anything wrong there" or somesuch.

something
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2409: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:41:43 AM

That seems to be the case. If a holler is not acted upon, or it is settled via PMs between the perceived violator and the moderator, the one who made the holler will probably require some confirmation that their plea was indeed answered, even if it was not handled in the way they expected.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2410: Feb 29th 2012 at 9:59:31 AM

To repeat, we do generally send a PM in those cases, but it's likely that we forget to do it if there's a lot going on.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#2411: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:05:16 AM

It's only the few bad things that people notice. How do we change that?

One of the most frequent complaints I've seen re: transparency have to do with forum bans that happen for non-obvious reasons.

In some cases, no one knows the person is banned until a third party is contacted and posts about it here. In others, the ban may be mentioned but with little to no detail given as to why.

This can appear suspicious on its own, but a good deal more-so when the banee has been openly critical of the site or the administration. When combined with the thumping system, it also allows the banned person (or anyone who wishes to interpret it this way) to paint it as "I was only banned because I questioned the mods!" And since no one can see the content of the thumped posts after the fact, and no reasoning is given, they have little basis to argue that those claims are false.

I think Bobby G's response to Yeah Bro's post earlier in this thread made it unquestionably clear that a ban was indeed deserved (even aside from the ban evasion aspect of it.) While I can understand why mods may not want that much of the original post to remain in public view, a statement that a troper has been banned with detailed reasons why it needed to happen at the very least will give the other tropers involved in the conversation something to go on. At the very least it can help prevent confusion due to hearing things second and third hand, as well as deliberate misinformation spread by the banned parties themselves.

It should be obvious at this point that if someone gets banned, the rest of us WILL hear about it from other sources. The more information we're given upfront, the less susceptible we as a community be when the situation is painted in a way that doesn't match the facts of what actually happened.

edited 29th Feb '12 10:07:58 AM by Meeble

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BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2412: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:09:05 AM

Would it be a good idea if we'd make a habit of always announcing in Absent People when we ban someone?

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
ThatHuman someone from someplace Since: Jun, 2010
someone
#2413: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:12:32 AM

Could an automatic system (like this) work?

edited 29th Feb '12 10:13:25 AM by ThatHuman

something
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2414: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:16:24 AM

I think it would help if you announced every ban (barring obvious one-shot trolls of course) in the absent people thread, but I'm not sure about the transparency issue. What if it is against the wishes of the banned to let other people know why the ban happened?

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#2415: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:20:16 AM

That's actually one of the biggest reasons we haven't done it. A lot of times the reasons for people being banned are personal and they don't want their dirty laundry aired to everyone because tropers care to gossip about them.

Also, it encourages Grave Dancing which is why the Edit Banned thread in It Just Awes Me was locked.

edited 29th Feb '12 10:21:27 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2416: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:23:46 AM

There have been a number of bans where we have witheld information about the banned person to reduce embarrasment.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2417: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:25:04 AM

[up]That is true; we'll need another solution here.

I think the problem with forum bans is that the effects of a forum ban aren't personal at all. That's why you get the people gossiping about it, and also the transparency issue.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

edited 29th Feb '12 10:25:56 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#2418: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:32:27 AM

Not only grave dancing, but back-seat driving and second-guessing. The Edit-banned thread was a prime example of that — it got to the point that the people appealing their bans and the mod responses were heavily outnumbered by passers-by making <Not A Mod, but> posts, despite numerous reminders that they generally weren't needed or wanted. In fact, one poster was forum-banned because they simply would not stop <Not A Mod>ing to say what boiled down to "You did a bad thing and you should feel bad." after numerous thumps and warnings about doing exactly that.

edited 29th Feb '12 10:32:37 AM by Madrugada

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2419: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:38:08 AM

^Yes, I remember that. The last pages there were particularly ugly. I see it was fixed at last by locking out third-party comments.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Meeble likes the cheeses. from the ruins of Granseal Since: Aug, 2009
likes the cheeses.
#2420: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:42:15 AM

I'm not saying that you would need to announce the reasons behind every ban, but if someone is banned because they're visibly making an ass out of themselves in a publicly viewable thread, I think they give up the right to "keeping their ban private to avoid embarrassment" at that point. This would apply to things like personal attacks, racist remarks, etc.

I think each case should be weighed by the need of the community to know what's going on. If the situation requires that a ban not be mentioned, so be it. If it's a borderline case or related to a very personal issue, a message of "X has been banned, but at their request we will not be divulging the reason why at this time" could be appropriate. In situations where it's a volatile community issue, details on the bans can be given to avoid unnecessary escalation.

For example, in the Haven situation (assuming that a ban was indeed the best possible solution here), a note to the effect of: "a suspension has been put in place so that we can review the matter with Haven privately and keep the thread on-track. It will be lifted once the matter has been cleared up" would have been helpful.

edited 29th Feb '12 10:44:32 AM by Meeble

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2421: Feb 29th 2012 at 10:45:00 AM

I think that a public ban appeal process might work as well - no third-party comments, of course.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#2422: Feb 29th 2012 at 1:56:31 PM

What do we do in the case where we holler, but we never get a response?

For example, a few days ago, I hollered a post in Writer's Block which was an attack at the OP's language skills (it was iffy, but not too bad) and as far as I know, no action had been made.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2423: Feb 29th 2012 at 1:59:44 PM

Holler again, asking for a PM if it isn't a rules violation?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#2424: Feb 29th 2012 at 2:09:32 PM

Among the few hollers I've done, I've either gotten a response that it was not a problem, or action was taken.

While if no action is taken(I'd figure this out a few days from the original holler), it's possible to assume they didn't. But I don't see any real issues with letting them know it wasn't a problem. By saying that, they don't feel left out or ignored. I find the communication a lot better, IMO.

Quest 64 thread
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#2425: Feb 29th 2012 at 2:53:01 PM

For example, a few days ago, I hollered a post in Writer's Block which was an attack at the OP's language skills

Well, for that one, to me it doesn't read as an attack necessarily. I mean, it depends a lot on the tone that's read into it, but first time I read it, after your original Holler, it looked more like emphatic but genuine advice. So I didn't do anything about it, and it looks like none of the other mods are gonna do anything about it, either.

Sometimes, we get loads of Hollers in rapid succession. When we do something about a Holler, we leave a comment in the Hollers thread that goes like "The three Hollers above are dealt with" or "I PM'd Troper X" or "Everything's done to here" and then there might be a post somewhere in the middle that wasn't acted on but wasn't reported as "done" by any of the mods because everyone who took a look at it chose to do nothing about it and instead move on to the next Holler and maybe they just forgot to say "I don't think Holler #x needed action."

Normally we'd PM you about it, but sometimes you're in the middle of a rush of Hollers and we're too busy to go to the next one in line to write up a response right away and then we forget and the other mods, when they look at it, might think that since both Hollers around yours got looked at, you were probably told about the decision on your Holler even if no mention of this is made in the thread.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

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