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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2952: Jul 26th 2018 at 9:23:57 PM

Yeah, true.

Mind you, that's why I was suggesting Workshop forum only. But yeah, never mind. Honestly forgot about that kind of stuff.

Shadow?
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#2953: Jul 27th 2018 at 10:23:14 AM

Honestly, as much as I think it's well-deserved and not surprising, I don't think trash-talking someone who can't respond is particularly high class.

Check out my fanfiction!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2954: Jul 27th 2018 at 1:19:23 PM

Well, do you want us to answer questions about what happened or maintain the privacy of the subject? We can't do both.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#2955: Jul 27th 2018 at 7:16:24 PM

Look, my original post was more about moderation policy than about Ambar.

Either we are allowed to question and discuss how the moderation team decides to regulate posting on the site, or we are not. Discussing our concerns about moderation with other troopers in private messages seems verboten, based on the fact that this was very negatively commented on in regards to Ambar.

At the moment, it seems like the moderation team has unilateral and unlimited prerogative to decide whether or not bigotry of any kind may be called out. Whether a particular comment calling out bigotry or pointing out inadvertent use of bigoted buzzwords/talking points is too much or crosses a line seems to be at the mod’s discretion, but as far as I can tell, there’s no way to tell if a comment is over the line, unless one knows each moderator’s personal beliefs.

Deliberate misgendering of another troper? Not a big deal, apparently.

Making a statement about feeling unsafe as a minority in America? Apparently too dramatic and hyperbolic.

Making repeated comments full of racist dog whistles? Not a big issue. Politely and firmly calling out dog whistles? Apparently that’s being argumentative and nasty.

Suggesting that sexual assault isn’t something that should disqualify a politician from holding office? Okay, just fine. Suggesting that well-intentioned but flawed moderation policy is enabling bad people? A beyond the pale, “flame out”, bannable offense.

As I’ve said before, I’ve only become a more educated, informed person by being called out and educated by people who hear dogwhistles that I, a middle class white cis woman, didn’t used to hear. It can be uncomfortable, but I’d rather grow than dig my heels in and refuse to become better.

I don’t think the moderation policy is malicious, I just think that there’s room for improvement. If saying that there’s room for improvement is a bannable offense; if politely questioning the mods is forbidden- then what kind of community do we even have here?

GamesandTropes Since: Jul, 2011
#2956: Jul 27th 2018 at 7:46:48 PM

Normally, I don't post on this thread, but Willow is right. The question must be answered.

I had to walk away from the forums for a while because the sheer stress of dealing with the above-mentioned issues got to me, to the point where my health started to have issues.

When people are allowed to brush off the dark pasts of their countries to glorify them,and, when called out on it or have the issues explained to them, continue with the apologia for the said dark parts, effectively doubling down on those efforts, and not face any sort of retribution but a slap on the wrist, it tends to make those of us who are, like myself, minorities, feel not only uncomfortable, but unwelcome.

While argument may be inevitable on here, I have to ask, given that being a minority is a tenuous existence, if we can't feel protected on TV Tropes, where can we?

Edited by GamesandTropes on Jul 27th 2018 at 8:15:45 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2957: Jul 27th 2018 at 7:56:20 PM

Honestly, when you're afraid to post or even send a PM because you are convinced you might be banned or that another troper might go to the mods and get you banned, something is wrong. And I say this because it's a feeling I found myself experiencing about a week ago.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2958: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:12:34 PM

With all due respect, considering that a troper who admitted to being attracted to children and with a history of harassment has been allowed to roam on the forums I would honestly say that there's at least a discussion to be had about a problem with Tvtropes being, perhaps, overly tolerant towards toxic beliefs.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2959: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:13:51 PM

I think you guys are creating an issue where one doesn't exist. Namely, all three of you are deliberately leaving off a rather notable and key fact. No one was banned for merely pm'ing a moderator with a concern or bringing up issues. Ambar was first banned from OTC for a known pattern of rudeness and aggression that came about because he collected a number of "hollers" followed by thumps in the threads. Those come from posters calling the mods and pointing out his bad behavior. Fighteer spelled out it rather plainly. Ambar didn't get the hint that he was going too far and kept on with the bad behavior. This reached its logical conclusion resulting in a ban. A ban he could have chosen to discuss with the mods in the Edit Banned thread. That isn't what happened at all. He decided he was going to double down on the bad choices and enlisted others via PM to pick a fight with a moderator about it. A moderator who was acting on a group discussion, not an individual decision. A moderator who was doing their job as a moderator.

None of that is by any measure a ban for "merely bringing up a concern". It is a ban for a chain of bad personal decisions.

A casual read through of the Edit Banned thread which is open for everyone to read shows that sort of behavior is not tolerated. I have been around the forum for a long time. No one has ever been banned for merely bringing up a concern. They have been banned for being rude, offensive, or generally hostile while doing it. I have seen more than a few flame-out rants, that while they may have had valid concerns decided to be hostile in the discussion. It doesn't take a lot of depth of forethought to be simply polite when asking a mod a question or bringing up a concern. I have yet to be anywhere in the physical world or the digital where being deliberately rude to authority figures of any sort has a net positive outcome.

Edited by TuefelHundenIV on Jul 27th 2018 at 10:13:59 AM

Who watches the watchmen?
GamesandTropes Since: Jul, 2011
#2960: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:22:11 PM

In all due respect, Tuefel the question was not posed at you, but at the mods.

I, again, have mostly been away from the forums for months because of these issues making it incredibly stressful for me.

Edited by GamesandTropes on Jul 27th 2018 at 8:28:36 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#2961: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:23:23 PM

[up][up]With all due respect, you’ve missed the point of my post. I’ve repeatedly said this isn’t about Ambar, it’s about the moderation in general. I’ll also note the fact that the other people below me also didn’t bring up Ambar. I’ve had these concerns for months; Ambar being banned merely was the impetus for me to finally bring up those concerns.

I read the edit/suspended thread too, and I’m concerned/puzzled by a lot of it, for the reasons stated in my most recent post above.

And there’s no transparency; once a post is thumped, no one knows what it said but the mods and the poster. How can anyone else tell what was worthy of the thump?

The balance between valuing civility and open expression and inadvertently tolerating bigotry or prioritizing civility over calling out bigotry is my concern here. I know it’s a hard issue, and again, I’m not accusing any mods of being malicious, but I think that we could have a much better community if there was better moderation on that issue.

Edited by wisewillow on Jul 27th 2018 at 8:23:16 AM

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#2962: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:28:50 PM

One issue I've noticed is kinda simple, lots of "assholes" are good at flying by under the radar. They don't unload their entire philosophy in one post. But they drop pieces of it here and there. So when you're constantly arguing with them, you see it all, and thus when they drop another part, you know what it all connects to.

What this often means is that folks who are arguing see the "whole" picture but only ever report small bits and pieces because that's all that's being said. But because the arguer has seen multiple flags, they react to it like it's a big thing.

That's not a bad thing, mind you, that's regular human behavior, but I've definitely see a few arguments on tv tropes spin out of control because of that specific sort of interaction, and then the mods only see the bit that they were reported to, not the possible months of other interactions that might have led to that point.

It's the safest way for "assholes" to not get in trouble, and a lot of people will subconsciously adapt to this because they realize it gets them the best results (aka, not getting banned). Non-asshole types also do this, it's a very simple adaptive tactic to do.

Just to add a further wrench that might need to be solved.

Read my stories!
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#2963: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:37:39 PM

Yes, I’ve absolutely noticed this. When the same person repeatedly makes negative posts about black-led projects, and black actors, and repeatedly makes dog whistle comments about minorities, you notice the pattern where a mod may not see the whole picture.

MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#2964: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:47:12 PM

Yeah. It can also essentially become bait. I've seen quite a few er, "vigilante" tropers so to speak that decide to die on a specific hill, only for that hill to be incredibly poorly chosen.

Having a safe environment free of bigotry is important, but that doesn't mean everyone who is "correct" is arguing in a way that can be understood or interpreted properly. And that's not me saying everyone should argue nicely, that's just more of a point that these things aren't always obvious when trying to assess a situation.

(anyway that's all I got to say in this situation, so I'll be shrugging out unless I find more communication points of relevance)

Edited by MrAHR on Jul 27th 2018 at 11:49:33 AM

Read my stories!
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2965: Jul 27th 2018 at 8:48:16 PM

[up]x6 Something I've learned over the past two years is that dogwhistles are a thing. And that if you see something that stands out or is an obvious dogwhistle, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with pointing that out so long as you aren't being a raging jackass. Even if it makes some people uncomfortable. I mean, there have been times when learning about how awful minorities and the like can be treated has made me uncomfortable. I still remembering watching Twelve Years a Slave for the first time. But at the same time, I'm still glad I watched it because I learned something valuable. Even if it made me squirm a bit.

And to be clear, this isn't just about Ambar. This is about all moderation in general. Ambar was just the catalyst.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2966: Jul 27th 2018 at 9:17:59 PM

Game: With all due respect I have as much right to respond and talk about it as other posters. This is a public thread.

Wise: No I got your point but you're not exactly strictly discussing just that issue either. Literally, you mention Ambar in the 2nd paragraph and mention how we can't discuss moderation policy via pm because of what happened to Ambar. The part that is missing is that went beyond just discussion and right into accusation and hostility. The sarcastic chunk of your post is not exactly subtle about who that might be referring to either especially the flame out comment given we have only had one person currently suffer the flame out and get banned for it.

I did deliberately mention that only times I have ever seen anyone get banned or punished for bringing up an issue was when they were overtly hostile and rude in the process. I will put it simply. Being polite costs nothing. Being rude to any given authority structure could cost you quite a bit.

Edit Banned is pretty transparent. The person posts, the mods address them and describe why they were banned and what they need to do to address the issue. They either discuss it enough that the point gets across or the person in question reaches a point of failure and winds up on the business end of one the bans. It isn't that hard to follow and it is pretty transparent.

On the Thump's I sort of agree. On one hand, it would be nice to see what happened however on the other removing it in also covers up the foul or overtly offensive material and also removes an easy source of fuel for other arguments. If you can't see what the fight was about it is kind of hard to pick it back up or continue it as easily. The individual posters can still see their posts by editing it.

As for the mods having the power they do, that is pretty much par for the course in the vast majority of forums. The admins and moderators hold the power of enforcement, policy, and addressing issues. There is no easy way around it and letting tropers try and tackle it themselves has never worked out in other experiments like policing troper tales or the sexually oriented tropes. They are also not monolithic and the mod team is made up of multiple people of varying backgrounds, ethnicities, and beliefs so they aren't exactly an echo chamber either.

If you want an answer in how to bring it up to mods. Mr. AHR's post is a good example of how you bring up issues. As Septimus point out earlier your earlier larger post another good example.

Who watches the watchmen?
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#2967: Jul 27th 2018 at 9:18:48 PM

[up][up]Exactly this. I have literally every type of privilege except being straight and male. I feel uncomfortable a lot of the time talking about class/race/gender/sexuality/etc issues. But that’s ok, because that’s how learning happens, and so I suck it up. Because my discomfort isn’t as important as learning about the systemic oppression of others, and learning to recognize those systemic issues, and learning how to challenge the status quo and use my privilege to lift other people up.

Also, I’m still legitimately worried that I’ll be thumped or banned for raising these concerns. I think I’ve been more than respectful, but if the mods take offense, I don’t really have any recourse. That said, I’d rather try to raise issues that affect the dynamic of the entire community and take my chances than be a coward.

[up] I referenced Ambar as an example, yes. But my concerns go far beyond the PM issue. As for the mods, I’ve been in various forums, bigger and smaller, with far more mod transparency. We have hundreds of threads and I only ever see... 2-3 mods? That’s a pretty small echo chamber, although I’m guessing things are discussed by more mods behind the scenes.

As for my earlier post bringing up issues about civility and bigotry, it was pretty much ignored. No one really responded to anything except the Ambar bits. No one expressed concern as to why a troper felt so scared of the mod team, or how that happened, or asked about my concerns about bigotry flying under the radar.

Your signature tag also sums up my concerns rather well.

Edited by wisewillow on Jul 27th 2018 at 9:42:07 AM

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2968: Jul 27th 2018 at 9:52:08 PM

OK, there are a lot of things going on, and...we hear them. We do.

There was discussion on soliciting private examples people have seen of issues with the moderation.

We did not post in this thread, because it could easily have gotten out of hand. We were going to private message people.

Why didn't we - frankly, we find ourselves stretched a little thin. As commented above, there are typically only a few mods, across a few different timezones, tasked with watching over 100+ threads, various personalities and presences in different threads, with all the history and baggage. Sometimes, cut-and-dry cases are reported to us in hollers or personal communications. Sometimes, they span years and require a lot of attention that we are not equipped to untangle all the time. In this case - in these past few weeks- because of real life obligations, trying to take care of various 1.8 related issues, etc. - we dropped the ball, and hadn't gotten around to actually messaging despite agreeing that should be done.

As a few people mentioned, there's clearly genuine concerns that the current moderation activity is resulting in bad actors getting pass. Please take this as a reiteration that we want to hear these criticisms, and give them a fair shake. Fear of mod appeal is absolutely not something we want to engender, but - that's ended up happening regardless. We can't fix what has already happened, but I can tell you it was not our goal, and I can tell you we will do our best to prove the opposite moving forward. As other mods have said, we are open to reasonable concerns. I hope, in cases where it seems an inappropriate decision has been made, you can reach out.

We have been discussing this internally and trying to give these concerns the weight they deserve. We are discussing improving our forum mod team, by giving more resources into giving attention to recurrent bad actors, disturbing trends, et al., and by identifying anyone else we can add to the mod team for more particular knowledge in issues the active mods are not as familiar with.

We appreciate and want TVT to be a reasonable, well-moderated forum, and part of that is listening when events like this come up. We're here, we'll do our best to listen.

Please feel free to post in this thread and to PM a mod you feel comfortable approaching, now and moving forward.

Edited by nombretomado on Jul 27th 2018 at 9:57:52 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#2969: Jul 27th 2018 at 10:10:12 PM

Thank you. This entire past few weeks, my biggest frustration (besides what I posted) was feeling like I was shouting into the void here and not being heard.

While obviously a single post doesn’t/can’t address all my concerns, I really do feel heard, and I look forward to seeing how things go moving forward.

Honest question- how do mods get chosen? I’m baffled by how few mods we have. Worrying about editing pages, site coding, AND monitoring forums seems like an absurd amount of work for so few people. And those are three VERY different skill sets.

Edited by wisewillow on Jul 27th 2018 at 10:15:21 AM

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2970: Jul 27th 2018 at 10:23:34 PM

Honest question- how do mods get chosen? I’m baffled by how few mods we have. Worrying about editing pages, site coding, AND monitoring forums seems like an absurd amount of work for so few people.

Believe us, we agree that it can be absurd.

A fair disclaimer that as one of the newer mods, I can't speak to historical practices of mod selection. I was the most recent mod selection. I can speak to the fact that our actual mod team is fairly large (18), but people's obligations pull them in and out. 1/3 of them, for example, are active right now, each with their usual area of moderating activity.

Identifying potential mods/admins takes resources, and, ironically, the more overstretched we are, the less time we have to fairly research, identify, discuss, and approach people to share the burden with. But again - these past few weeks have made it clear that we need to make that a priority for the community.

Edited by nombretomado on Jul 28th 2018 at 4:59:44 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#2971: Jul 27th 2018 at 10:40:44 PM

Six active mods for this whole site is... terrifyingly few. Honestly, the forums alone need at least 6 mods. And there’s such different skill sets for modding forums versus editing pages and so on. Tact, caution, patience to get all facts/context possible before taking action, good teamwork and communication skills to work effectively with other mods...

GamesandTropes Since: Jul, 2011
#2972: Jul 27th 2018 at 10:46:19 PM

Considering how thinly stretched you guys are at the moment, I suggest looking for the people who really want to improve the site, especially if they already have some sort of prior mod experience.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#2973: Jul 27th 2018 at 10:52:48 PM

nombretomado pretty much said everything I had in a post ready to paste in. Glad I checked first. We have roughly 7 active moderators that I have seen with any regularity.

Well if you guys are stretched thin sounds like it is time to beat the recruiting drum again.

How much of the mods time is taken up with various "grunt work" that is common every day tasks vs things that require a lot more input? If the generic tasks are bogging things down perhaps selecting a team of mods to shoulder more of the grunt work could help alleviate assorted issues.

Who watches the watchmen?
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#2974: Jul 27th 2018 at 10:58:49 PM

I agree. Having dedicated mods for different tasks- grunt work versus coding versus forums, etc- is definitely a good idea. It’s hard to do multiple things well. Something always falls through the cracks.

I also think that when recruiting new mods, it might not be a bad idea to keep demographics in mind. I don’t know what the current gender/racial/LGBT ratio on the mod team is, but having a broader set of perspectives can help lift up a whole team.

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2975: Jul 27th 2018 at 11:04:19 PM

If the generic tasks are bogging things down perhaps selecting a team of mods to shoulder more of the grunt work could help alleviate assorted issues.

It's a good idea we have tried to some degree in the past - i.e., you may recall "cutmasters" at one point did not equal "moderator". I personally was recruited for more wiki-side works - but due to other mods' absentee status, needs shifted and so did roles.

I also think that when recruiting new mods, it might not be a bad idea to keep demographics in mind. I don’t know what the current gender/racial/LGBT ratio on the mod team is, but having a broader set of perspectives can help lift up a whole team.

That's fair. We do need to closely self-examine and identify the gaps in our knowledge and experience, which has cropped up in internal discussions (especially around more contentious cases) and is something we want to keep in mind for current recruiting.

Edited by nombretomado on Jul 27th 2018 at 11:09:11 AM


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