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juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#251: Dec 21st 2011 at 7:03:43 AM

Curses! Foiled again!

Personally, I'm against post deletion. I believe it to be a poor form of moderation, rather than an actual moderator intervening and explaining what's wrong. Or, to be more accurate: I think that moderators should speak up first, delete posts later. Like, after it's made clear what's wrong with those posts.

I just know that it's kind of ridiculous when I go into a thread and see like, twenty thumped posts, and some posts responding to them are left alone so I'm getting half of a conversation without the other half, and the people with ten thumps are still posting in the thread.

Not only that, but most of the time, you only get the promoderation side of the conversation, like with Yeah Bro's ban.

edited 21st Dec '11 7:04:41 AM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#252: Dec 21st 2011 at 7:07:07 AM

Personally, I'm against post deletion. I believe it to be a poor form of moderation, rather than an actual moderator intervening and explaining what's wrong. Or, to be more accurate: I think that moderators should speak up first, delete posts later. Like, after it's made clear what's wrong with those posts.

>_> Yeah.

Not only that, but most of the time, you only get the promoderation side of the conversation, like with Yeah Bro's ban.

That is often how it goes, yeah.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
BobbyG vigilantly taxonomish from England Since: Jan, 2001
vigilantly taxonomish
#253: Dec 21st 2011 at 7:17:50 AM

Also, if a person is having multiple posts in a thread thumped, it may be simpler to just forum-ban the person rather than littering a thread with multiple THUMPED messages.

And if a thread needs several thumps, then maybe it would be better to like, yell at the thread first? Or maybe lock it.

I can see where you're coming from. From my perspective, a thump feels like a less drastic measure than locking a thread, which punishes everybody and shuts down the conversation altogether. Depending on the scale of the topic, even bans and skullfuckings can seem less severe than shutting down the entire discussion.

I'm heading out now, but I'll think on this.

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CyganAngel Away on the wind~ from Arcadia Since: Oct, 2010
Away on the wind~
#254: Dec 21st 2011 at 7:22:12 AM

Yeah, it's a less drastic measure. But I'm not talking about when there's like, five posts to be thumped. It's when there's like, 50% of the past couple of pages in a thread being thumped, and the mods have to forcibly rerail a thread.

Anyway, thanks for thinking about it, even if nothing changes on that front.

There are too many toasters in my chimney!
TripleElation Diagonalizing The Matrix from Haifa, Isarel Since: Jan, 2001
Diagonalizing The Matrix
#255: Dec 21st 2011 at 7:23:15 AM

I have to confess, thumped posts and deleted threads make me very uneasy.

edited 21st Dec '11 7:25:58 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#256: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:01:40 AM

Leaving offensive material up is very attractive to trolls. They get to plant their nonsense and we get to host it while they snigger. Thumping removes that incentive to troll. This is also why we outright zap certain threads. The troll doesn't care if it gets locked. They just want it up where people can read it.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:02:11 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#257: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:04:48 AM

Also, if a thread derails or devolves into personal attacks, leaving those visible provides an incentive to continue the derail or retaliate against the attacks. We thump the posts because their content was inappropriate. Reprimanding the user who posted them is a secondary objective.

Let me reiterate: the reason thumps exist is because we didn't think that the post should have been made in the first place. Removing it from view is the whole point.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:05:51 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#258: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:08:42 AM

That's the thoery behind it. The practice doesn't make it so. Unless that you think that a post criticizing the administration is something that should have not been made in the first place.

And if that is the case, then...well, I have no words.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#259: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:15:25 AM

The point isn't that it's critical, it's that it's uncivil. If we deleted everything critical of the administration then this thread would not exist and everyone in it would be banned. Since we are clearly allowing the conversation, then it should be equally obvious that criticism is not the issue.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#260: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:18:57 AM

[up] That's it right there. Compare the OP of this thread to the usual "FAST EDDIE IS STUPID" criticism. Being calm and polite works wonders. Is it really that hard not to insult people while criticizing?

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#261: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:21:59 AM

Right. I don't think being critical of admins/mods has been thumped unless the "critique" was rude. Maybe in some cases the thumped post wasn't rude on its face but was the 40th iteration of the same damn thing over and over from the same person.

The guideline is not "Don't be a dick, unless you are criticizing administration."

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#262: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:28:40 AM

All I'm trying to say is that it sends a mixed message when someone's post is being deleted. You can say that the reason behind it is lack of civility all you want, but when pages look like this and there are only two or three posts by non moderators, then you start to wonder what is the meaning of it all and what is behind those posts.

I mean, most of the reasoning behind thumping is barely working:

  • We want to avoid trolling: The damage is done by the time the thump is performed (Granted, this is not an inherent property of thumping as it is just an inherent property of posters replying) Any future damage is possibly controlled and reduced. to which degree, I'm not certain of. I personally believe it to be minimal, based on my own experience. But anecdotical experience and all that.
  • The userbase does not learn about the events: This is most important part. If you want your users to actively understand what is going on, how moderation works, how the site works, or hell, just how anything works here, then you need to let them see what is wrongdoing. By letting it become a giant X variable, you just allow for people to fill in the holes in any way that is utterly convenient to their ideals

In fact, I think a lot of our problems would be outright fixed if the moderation wasn't so aloof, deleting posts and threads and using modhats. It creates a clear rift between a moderator and a user, which there shouldn't be. I've seen myself that a personable moderator who tries being reasonable as a user first works much more than the one who goes "MODHAT, THREAD NUKE, SHUT UP TROLLS" every five seconds.

ETA: I don't mean to say that Yeah whatever and Anne were not rude people. Because they were. They were people who often went out of their way to snipe and attack people who are...let's just say they're not better than the people they attacked and leave it at that.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:30:08 AM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#263: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:30:50 AM

We've been reasonable in the Edit Banned thread, multiple times. People don't get the point. The thread is for the banned person and the mods to discuss the issue. It is not for the peanut gallery. We've tried being nice about it and it doesn't work.

The thumpstick is supposed to have a chilling effect. On the conversation that got the thumpstick. One would think that was obvious — if we thump something, it means we want it to stop. To judge by the number of posts in every subforum on this site, clearly it's not stopping people from posting in general.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:33:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#264: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:31:59 AM

At least in the Edit Banned thread, at the beginning the moderators had always to remind people to stay on-topic. That's why it's now Thump On Sight if it is off-topic.

Ninja'd.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:32:20 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#265: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:34:40 AM

—shrug— It's just an example of what happens when everything gets deleted except a few posts. It looks like you're replying to ghosts, for starters

The thumpstick is supposed to have a chilling effect. On the conversation that got the thumpstick. One would think that was obvious. To judge by the number of posts in every subforum on this site, clearly it's not stopping people from posting.

Yes, because having my posts deleted right after they are read by the people that need to read it sends shivers down my spine.

My point is hardly that, you know. I'm not saying that people are going to stop posting here and let it be that. All I'm saying is that these are the sources of the attitudes that you claim to dislike and fight.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:35:47 AM by juancarlos

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#266: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:36:05 AM

Too bad. Maybe if you want people to be able to read what you write, you should follow the rules. This applies generally, not just to you, juan.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:36:45 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#267: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:38:35 AM

Well, we may be able to make the message left by the thumper more verbose. Though stuff like: "Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person," gives a pretty clear idea to other tropers of what they should avoid doing.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:39:26 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#268: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:45:08 AM

Too bad. Maybe if you want people to be able to read what you write, you should follow the rules. This applies generally, not just to you, juan.

That's the thing. The people who I want to read it do so. Anyone else who comes in late won't. But it doesn't matter, as most of those people are bound to thread hop.

Not only are thumps ineffectual, they are also rather ephemeral. I'd argue they are as ephemeral as posts are themselves.

Well, we may be able to make the message left by the thump more verbose. Though stuff like: "Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person, " gives a pretty clear idea to other tropers of what they should avoid doing.

It then becomes a matter of taking your word for it. And it should never be like that. Not because you are not trustable, but because it simply does not bode well in this kind of discussion and when it comes to understanding.

The problem is that thumps don't work either as punishment or as damage control. They work, maybe, as a way for the userbase to fear a subject and to not touch it, which I find several kinds of wrong. We should be able to discuss anything with a degree of civility, if we are free speech forum. If someone doesn't follow the civility part, well...I guess there are bans, but I think that a lot of times, unless it's a consistent lack of civility, a ban is unjustified.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#269: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:48:50 AM

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with what you're saying. Leaving inappropriate conversation visible is a direct incitement to continue acting that way. We're here to keep conversations civil and appropriate, not make you feel good about your free speech rights.

There is nothing about a reply consisting of "Fuck you you fucking idiot" that contributes in any way to a conversation. If thumping that kind of speech stops people from doing it in the future, good. That's the point.

edited 21st Dec '11 8:49:41 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
#270: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:51:20 AM

Maybe there should be some sort of flag on the "Edit banned" thread notifying people that it's only for the appealing banned folks and moderators. I know the mods get annoyed with having to say it every ten pages or so, but at the same time, the number of people who even know that it was posted ten pages ago (and twenty, and twenty-five, and thirty...) is not very high.

My best guess would be for a mod to edit in a note about that in the very first post, since one can make an argument about the necessity of thread hopping to near the end... but nobody has an excuse for skipping the first post.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#271: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:53:19 AM

I kind of disagree there — historically, it's been the same posters getting thumped repeatedly. Also, how many people genuinely read the first post for the rules? I admit that I've considered redoing the thread with a moderator OP for a while, though. Maybe I should get around to that.

I've also thought about asking Eddie to restrict the thread to moderators and people with some kind of ban flag, but I'm not sure how well that would work in practice.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#272: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:54:09 AM

The problem are not the wrong people posting, but the wrong subjects being posted on Edit Banned. Not all non-moderator or non-apellee posts are off-topic, you know.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#273: Dec 21st 2011 at 8:57:42 AM

There's a difference between being genuinely helpful to a poster when the mods haven't responded yet and having side conversations. Part of it is that there's this irresistible urge to want to gossip about the people who show up in the thread, and we keep having to tell people that moderation issues are between the user and the staff.

Incidentally, I have my eye on the "absent people" thread in Yack Fest. Yes, I know it's not just for banned people, but come on... really?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
juancarlos Faith in the self. Since: Mar, 2012
Faith in the self.
#274: Dec 21st 2011 at 9:04:16 AM

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with what you're saying. Leaving inappropriate conversation visible is a direct incitement to continue acting that way. We're here to keep conversations civil and appropriate, not make you feel good about your free speech rights.

And yet, we allow posts claiming for the dead of the police because of those free speech rights.

I'm not saying that we should allow free speech. Au contraire, I think we should limit it to a degree. The degree that does not allow for such stupidity and downright obnoxiousness to exist

There is nothing about a reply consisting of "Fuck you you fucking idiot" that contributes in any way to a conversation. If thumping that kind of speech stops people from doing it in the future, good. That's the point.

But it doesn't. All it does is allow for martyrs to happen. When you thump someone for saying "Fuck you, you fucking idiot" then you don't have any way of proving they said this. People then fill in the holes.

I say that the easiest way around this is probations. Not everything should be a matter of thumping and banning.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#275: Dec 21st 2011 at 9:05:58 AM

And yet, we allow posts claiming for the dead of the police because of those free speech rights.
If people would holler them, we wouldn't. I recently temp banned someone for exactly that. Said user is about to get perma-banned if he keeps it up.

If someone wants to act like a martyr over a thump, we'll be happy to show them the door.

edited 21st Dec '11 9:06:33 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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