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What to do about (New crowner swapped in 8/2/12): Nightmare Fuel

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Firebert That One Guy from Somewhere in Illinois Since: Jan, 2001
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#52: Dec 22nd 2011 at 1:36:26 PM

I frankly think Accidental Nightmare Fuel just needs to die. It's been too much of a mess for too long and it's not really a trope - how we're supposed to distinguish it from the intentional version has never been clear.

Routerie Since: Oct, 2011
#53: Dec 22nd 2011 at 2:11:23 PM

I support axing this, for reasons others have stated, but I really feel I need to argue against this point. It's not hard to tell if something's meant to be scary. Everything about the scene indicates one way or the other. The hard part is telling whether it is scary. That depends so much on people relating their feelings and experiences that the page inevitably turns into a personal anecdotes.

When just describing how something's scary, you also tend to introduce your own feelings, but you needn't too much. "He did this, and they did this, and then this happened, which was jarring and horrific blah blah. But when you do this for something that's not supposed to be scary, all the objective description has to concern the absence of horror - forcing the scary description to take the form of "and then, holy crap, I don't care what you say but that goat was terrifying."

edited 22nd Dec '11 2:11:39 PM by Routerie

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#54: Dec 22nd 2011 at 3:49:11 PM

[up] When you get things that are suppose to be cute but it turns out wrong to where say Big Bird looks like a monster is a trope.

Saw a Mythbusters recently where they made a dog out of ballistics gel it was intended to be cute but it scared the crap out of everyone including the maker. That is Nightmare Fuel.

edited 22nd Dec '11 3:50:48 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
Routerie Since: Oct, 2011
#55: Dec 22nd 2011 at 3:51:35 PM

[up]So in-universe only then? Because that would work.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#56: Dec 23rd 2011 at 11:10:18 AM

I support axing this, for reasons others have stated, but I really feel I need to argue against this point. It's not hard to tell if something's meant to be scary.
That varies from case to case. Point is, we are never completely sure. (Even what writers claim might not necessarily be honest.)

edited 23rd Dec '11 11:10:37 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
MyTrainIsOff Impossible from The Circus Since: Jul, 2010
Impossible
#57: Dec 26th 2011 at 5:56:45 AM

I think this trope serves more purpose then Troper Tales and can be interesting, renaming it is better then deleting it becausse it's so good to read sometimes.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#58: Dec 26th 2011 at 8:53:49 AM

[up] We already renamed it once, yet that hasn't been very effective.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
MangaManiac Since: Aug, 2010
#59: Dec 26th 2011 at 3:53:52 PM

I don't think we renamed it properly though; the page is still linked to as NightmareFuel and on almost all of the subpages are still at NightmareFuel, which is the subpage linked to on the works' moments bits.

Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#60: Dec 26th 2011 at 4:20:32 PM

[up] Exactly it wasn't done right at all. The name was just custom titled and left alone... That has never worked on any trope it's been done to... It just ends up back in the repair shop.

For one thing this page should not get an icon next to the funny or even subpages like it is, only High octane should have that at all.

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#61: Dec 27th 2011 at 10:53:42 AM

almost all of the subpages are still at NightmareFuel
If you are suggesting that people see the phrase "nightmare fuel" and assume nothing changed, this means such editors didn't pay attention to the forum threads, discussion pages, or even the main page of the very trope whose subpages they are editing. If that's the case, then a significant chunk of the blame belongs with such editors, not with the way in which the rename was done.

For one thing this page should not get an icon next to the funny or even subpages like it is, only High octane should have that at all.
Well, that's a start, at least.

edited 27th Dec '11 10:56:36 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#62: Dec 27th 2011 at 4:20:06 PM

If you are suggesting that people see the phrase "nightmare fuel" and assume nothing changed, this means such editors didn't pay attention to the forum threads, discussion pages, or even the main page of the very trope whose subpages they are editing. If that's the case, then a significant chunk of the blame belongs with such editors, not with the way in which the rename was done.

This may very well be the case. But we can't forcibly improve the intelligence of our editors, only try and work around it.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#63: Dec 28th 2011 at 8:30:23 AM

[up] It is not just a matter of intelligence, but also of effort, attentiveness, etc...

And while we cannot force individual editors to improve these things, we can force an improvement in the average by temporarily suspending the edit privileges of those who frequently contribute to misuse; or, alternatively, have different categories of article, such that articles prone to misuse cannot be edited by users who have been known to frequently contribute to misuse.

My point is, it is obvious from the reasoning that the problem is with the users, not the way the rename was handled.

edited 28th Dec '11 8:32:20 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Badger96 Rebellious Archivist from Alberta, Canada Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Sinking with my ship
Rebellious Archivist
#64: Dec 28th 2011 at 9:05:26 AM

Why not keep Nightmare Fuel as a parent trope for both types and have Accidental Nightmare Fuel and Intentional Nightmare Fuel as subtropes? The "high-octane" pun on fuel is kind of confusing to some people, I think, and it doesn't really show the "intentional" bit of something being scary.

edited 28th Dec '11 9:06:13 AM by Badger96

Not all those who wander are lost.
HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#65: Dec 28th 2011 at 9:47:43 AM

[up] And yet, HONF is predominantly used for moments that seem to be deliberate.

I don't think it's such a good idea to have "this was scary" as a trope, let alone to have two subtropes whose intent-based distinction is often uncertain.

EDITED IN: Should we set up a crowner?

edited 28th Dec '11 9:48:35 AM by HiddenFacedMatt

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Badger96 Rebellious Archivist from Alberta, Canada Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Sinking with my ship
Rebellious Archivist
#66: Dec 28th 2011 at 10:53:27 AM

S'why I said "to some people". If it's intentional nightmare fuel, just call it that and be done with it. I don't like the idea of nuking all the Nightmare Fuel pages. They're both used and referred to on other tropes' pages. There are a load of works that use both types of Nightmare Fuel frequently, and I can't think of any other tropes that would be applicable to such instances, aside from perhaps Fridge Horror.

Not all those who wander are lost.
MangaManiac Since: Aug, 2010
#67: Dec 28th 2011 at 3:51:53 PM

If you are suggesting that people see the phrase "nightmare fuel" and assume nothing changed, this means such editors didn't pay attention to the forum threads, discussion pages, or even the main page of the very trope whose subpages they are editing. If that's the case, then a significant chunk of the blame belongs with such editors, not with the way in which the rename was done.
If they were paying attention to the forum threads, discussion pages or even the main page of the very trope, there wouldn't have been misuse under the old NightmareFuel name either, would there?

Routerie Since: Oct, 2011
#68: Dec 28th 2011 at 4:28:27 PM

"There are a load of works that use both types of Nightmare Fuel frequently, and I can't think of any other tropes that would be applicable to such instances."

That's fine. "Horror" isn't a trope. It's a genre, which uses hundreds of tropes.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#69: Dec 28th 2011 at 5:00:16 PM

If they were paying attention to the forum threads, discussion pages or even the main page of the very trope, there wouldn't have been misuse under the old Nightmare Fuel name either, would there?
You never know. IIRC, the misconception was already pretty common even in the forums and discussion page when it was called Nightmare Fuel.

Even then, though, I blame the users more so than the name.

And "this trope is commonly used" is not a reason to keep it; if anything it is all the more reason to scrap it, given how much of that use is misuse.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#70: Dec 28th 2011 at 9:31:05 PM

Even then, though, I blame the users more so than the name.

But we can't do anything to improve the users' behavior. All we can try and do is make it as hard for them to misuse as possible.

I'm not even sure why we're having this argument, really. I think it needs cutting as well.

HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#71: Dec 29th 2011 at 6:20:57 AM

But we can't do anything to improve the users' behavior.
Again, my point is not about individual users. My point is about the average among editors. Raise the standards a bit for editing articles at all, raise the standards further for editing articles prone to misuse, etc... and the average will improve.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#72: Dec 29th 2011 at 3:46:09 PM

First of all, does the name work? Yes. It does.

Outside of a few examples of "the power to cause nightmares" there isn't any misuse outside of ANF vs. HONF debates. The question is whether ANF should exist, due to it being VERY subjective. Am I right?

Edit: It's getting confusing talking about the original NF page, because it's custom titled to ANF.

edited 29th Dec '11 3:47:21 PM by bwburke94

2025: the year it all ends?
HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#73: Dec 31st 2011 at 6:43:31 AM

First of all, does the name work? Yes. It does.
And yet misuse is still rampant.

Outside of a few examples of "the power to cause nightmares" there isn't any misuse outside of ANF vs. HONF debates. The question is whether ANF should exist, due to it being VERY subjective. Am I right?
As I said before, "not intended to be scary" isn't even a matter of opinion so much as of assumption. There's a difference.

Edit: It's getting confusing talking about the original NF page, because it's custom titled to ANF.
That's the official name, now. It meant accidental nightmare fuel long before getting renamed to that.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart
Raso Cure Candy Since: Jul, 2009
Cure Candy
#74: Dec 31st 2011 at 8:49:33 AM

It actually always ment Nightmare Fuel and High Octane (At the time it was Nightmare Fuel Unleaded) was spun off from that as intended scary. In practice people have used it as Nightmare Fuel then Same But More in. The High Octane Nightmare Fuel.

The fact that there is even a name space is really hurting this as people just read the title then add an example without actually reading the trope (as its not even on the same page.) Really Nightmare Fuel is pretty confined to children's shows and Off-Model stuff.

  • Ditching the namespace and sortting examples
  • fully renaming this (Ditching the custom title.),
  • Redirecting Nightmare Fuel to High Octane
I think would do a lot to fixing this up. (Moving High Octane to Sugar Wiki too.)

edited 31st Dec '11 8:51:43 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!
HiddenFacedMatt Avatars may be subject to change without notice. Since: Jul, 2011
Avatars may be subject to change without notice.
#75: Jan 3rd 2012 at 12:01:36 PM

It actually always ment Accidental Nightmare Fuel
Uh, didn't it originally mean "nightmare fuel for kids" before that?

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

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12th Jan '12 4:22:56 PM

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