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TheWesterner Malicious from The Land of Fools Since: Oct, 2011
Malicious
#251: Dec 22nd 2011 at 9:11:08 PM

[up] The British don't even want to talk about it.

edited 22nd Dec '11 9:11:34 PM by TheWesterner

I was wondering why frisbees got bigger as they got closer then it hit me.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#252: Dec 22nd 2011 at 9:18:23 PM

Well, shit, I wouldn't want to in their place either, but Argentina doesn't win any legitimacy when walking out on the people whose future they want to determine. And they did it, most likely, because the Falklanders had already decided.

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#253: Dec 22nd 2011 at 10:38:06 PM

re: Obama administration backing Argentina over UK

It's hardly like this would be the first time this administration has dissed the UK and the special relationship that the US and UK have had since not long after The War of 1812. Remember the iPod? tongue

All your safe space are belong to Trump
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#254: Dec 22nd 2011 at 10:39:27 PM

I think your estimation of the Special Relationship is reaching, there. I wouldn't seriously suggest its existence until post-World War II.

Also, it's apparently a tradition for the President to give the British Monarch a shitty gift. Make of that what you will.

Edit: And if I remember correctly, the Queen actually asked for that gift beforehand.

edited 22nd Dec '11 10:40:42 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
Marlfox from Glasgow, UK Since: May, 2010
#255: Dec 22nd 2011 at 10:57:59 PM

Yeah, not exactly the gaffe it's so often made out to be. Her old one was outdated apparantley. Thought it was quite a nice gesture personally.

Though I have to say, Obama really doesn't seem overly fond of us. I can understand why the US would remain neutral and call for negotiations, but calling the islands the Malvinas stings, it really does. One word that implies a thousand more.

Bane of Lancastrians. Softies.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#256: Dec 22nd 2011 at 10:59:56 PM

I don't understand it either. After Libya and Osama I expected more of Obama. Hm.

USAF disapproves -10

I am now known as Flyboy.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#257: Dec 22nd 2011 at 11:06:53 PM

Meh, I don't know if any of this will really add up to anything in the end. Unless negotiations happen, any attempt to take the islands is an invasion, which would turn it into a whole different ballgame. If Argentina does invade, I'd be very surprised if Obama didn't form some kind of protest against it.

TheWesterner Malicious from The Land of Fools Since: Oct, 2011
Malicious
#258: Dec 22nd 2011 at 11:28:33 PM

There's almost zero chance that Argentina would invade. It'd lose America's backing at the very least and that's a very powerful country you want on your side. Argentina's going a different route this time. Plus, I think they're smart enough to know that the UK would give them an asskicking in the end.

I was wondering why frisbees got bigger as they got closer then it hit me.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#259: Dec 23rd 2011 at 12:40:54 AM

Well, see, that's why I think it won't really add up to much besides people bitching at each other. I don't think anyone wants an actual physical conflict. It's basically going to go: Argentina bitches, UK bitches back, US calls for negotiations, negotiations either happen or they don't, everyone ends up pretty much as they were when this all started.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#260: Dec 23rd 2011 at 1:09:40 AM

...and the Daily Mail gets in the act with another of their Wild Mass Guessing-type features.

Keep Rolling On
SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#261: Dec 23rd 2011 at 2:06:33 AM

I kinda-sorta want Argentina to win... If them Brits lose badly enough, they WILL blame the cuts. If the defeat is spectacular enough, it might discredit the austerity meme once and for all... Or at the very least, it'd end Cameron's political career.

edited 23rd Dec '11 2:42:36 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
AgProv Curmudgeon from too south for Oop North and too north for Midland (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Curmudgeon
#262: Dec 23rd 2011 at 3:41:45 AM

We called it the General Galtieri Award For Services To The Conservative Party...

...one minute Thatcher was hated and getting nowhere. People could see the damage her policies were causing. It was almost certain she'd be kicked out at the next election. Then she gets gifted a fucking war to win, and the bitch rolls back in with a landslide - even though nothing had changed, her domestic policies were still destructive and ruinous, and set the foundation for the wreck Britain is today.

And the biggest irony? In late 1981, the Tories were proposing to rubber-stamp cuts to the Royal Navy that would have made it impossible to get the fleet together to win back the Falklands... Thatcher was all for these naval cuts...

edited 23rd Dec '11 3:43:57 AM by AgProv

Elderly curmudgeon and awkward person. Professional old fart.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#263: Dec 23rd 2011 at 4:42:29 AM

[up]

And for an indication of how desperate the Royal Navy was in 1982 — they considered the reactivation of HMS Bulwark, a former commando carrier that had been deactived in 1979 due to a fire. However, the vessel had deteriorated too much. To quote The Other Wiki:

On 28 June 1979, Bulwark was involved in exercise Whiskey Venture, with 820 Squadron (flying Sea Kings) and 45 Royal Marine Commando embarked. Also during 1979, Bulwark was involved in trials of the Sea Harrier. At the start of 1980, Bulwark visited the United States of America; participating in Exercise Safe Passage off the east coast of the United States in late February. On 15 March, while alongside in Philadelphia, a fire destroyed one boiler. The carrier returned to Portsmouth on 2 April, and on 15 April embarked 45 Commando for Exercise Dawn Patrol off Sardinia. In August, Bulwark was involved in Exercise Teamwork 80 off Norway. On 9 November, a major fire damaged the forward hangar and some messdecks.

Nonetheless, the carrier remained intact for over a year, and during the early stages of the Falklands War it was announced that Bulwark would be reactivated. However, a rapid ship survey had determined she had deteriorated too much for this to be practical. The carrier was eventually scrapped in 1984.

Keep Rolling On
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#264: Dec 23rd 2011 at 4:58:52 AM

@Major Tom- You cant just look at the current situation of England and a possible, and unlikely at that, situation for Argentina. If Argentina gets a Government willing to go to war over the islands, chances are its at LEAST 5+ years from now, as the current government has no reason or will to even think about it. By that time, the HMS Queen Elizabeth will be in service, and there is a good chance of the F-35 being ready then.

There's a greater probability of the F-35 being canned as a whole in the next 2 years than the QE being ready and equipped with them in 5.

Between budgetary concerns and a lot of data circulating about it that from a combat standpoint it's a rather poor aircraft (it's outmaneuvered in the air by the 1960s era F-4 Phantom II. What hope does it have in a close in fight against say a Mig-29 with a competent pilot?) the chances of the F-35 entering service are growing thin.

edited 23rd Dec '11 4:59:23 AM by MajorTom

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#265: Dec 23rd 2011 at 5:07:39 AM

[up]

"Too Big to Fail" might be the argument here — nothing will stop the F-35 entering service. Perhaps one of the variants might be dropped, but there are no alternatives.

Keep Rolling On
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#266: Dec 23rd 2011 at 5:17:39 AM

Theres another thing to think about, only Surimane spends less on Defence than Argentina in South America

Dutch Lesbian
Hurricane_Delta Since: Dec, 2009
#267: Dec 23rd 2011 at 7:52:36 AM

[up][up]

Not entirely true. The Rafale is a competant aircraft, with it most likely being the plane that shot down the SCUD that was heading to Misrata 4 months ago. The Typhoon is no slouch either.

And we can always do the Russian thing with our planes, and do heavy technological updates and such to existing aircraft (ala Su-27).

But back on topic, this hypocritical jackassery needs to be pointed out. Self-Determination for South Americans, but not for Falklanders? Bullshit.

Also, I am mad at Obama on this one.

edited 23rd Dec '11 7:53:05 AM by Hurricane_Delta

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#268: Dec 23rd 2011 at 8:02:27 AM

[up]

But making the Typhoon CATOBAR-capable? I've read somewhere that it would be a Typhoon In Name Only — it would look like a Typhoon, but it would be a completely new aircraft.

Us British being who we are, we'd rather do that than order the Rafale. French Fighters? Not us!

edited 23rd Dec '11 8:03:41 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#269: Dec 23rd 2011 at 8:20:17 AM

I get the feeling that what US and Brazil say will have more of an affect than England having more ships than Argentina.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
Catfish42 Bloody Fossil from world´s favourite country. Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Bloody Fossil
#270: Dec 23rd 2011 at 8:28:10 AM

I've read somewhere that it would be a Typhoon In Name Only

For CATOBAR, yes, since making the airframe capable of resisting the stress of a catapult launch is very extensive work and adds a lot more weight. However for STOBAR (i.e. ski-jump), there is much less work and weight (~500kg more) and a demonstrator has already been for an Indian Navy competition.

Still a theoretical possibility, even if it would necessitate changes to the carrier design again.

A different shape every step I take A different mind every step of the line
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#271: Dec 23rd 2011 at 10:34:51 AM

Or they could just buy some F/A-18 super hornets.

I'm baaaaaaack
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#272: Dec 23rd 2011 at 11:15:51 AM

Or we could just convince the French to lend us their aircraft carrier and man it with our own people. I think the reason the British didn't call on its allies in the original war was because if such an operation could be done it could be done than the British had enough forces as it is.

Tim I think you are seriously overestimating the capability of the Argentinean navy. Keep in mind that last time all it took was one good sink (by a sub) and the entire fleet turned tail and fled back to port. The British sub fleet is still strong enough to take out not only the Argentinean subs but also wreck havoc on their surface fleet.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
stripesthezebra Since: Dec, 2011
#273: Dec 23rd 2011 at 11:45:24 AM

I've returned again.

So, the US, Brazil, and most of South America are supporting Argentina in this? Well that's good, they might have a chance of pulling this of.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#274: Dec 23rd 2011 at 11:47:51 AM

US and Brazilian support evaporates if Argentina makes it a war, and US support will probably go away when Obama is out of office. Argentina is most likely just a political tool for Brazil, so I don't put much stock in that...

I am now known as Flyboy.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#275: Dec 23rd 2011 at 11:49:28 AM

The U.S. isnt. Obama is. and if he really supported them if they pulled this, he would NOT be re-elected.

I'm baaaaaaack

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