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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#22726: Mar 31st 2018 at 11:47:54 PM

Pablo Hidalgo is, at least, super adamant on the idea of there being no Grey Jedi ever in any shape or form in the current canon, etc.

Although, given that Rebels has since then essentially pulled a variation on the concept with Ahsoka, I've generally assumed he meant more along the lines of the 90's-esque "have their cake and eat it too" style Grey Jedi of the old EU who were too cool for the Jedi but too heroic for the Sith, not necessarily the idea of force users or following Jedi idealism but not Jedi practices/teachings entirely.

edited 31st Mar '18 11:48:14 PM by KnownUnknown

Eldritcho Since: Nov, 2016
#22727: Apr 1st 2018 at 12:06:14 AM

[up][up]

As I said, Im nt so much looking at the characters as I am the creators, and their personal philosophies of the force/Jedi.

Also, as Rey's character arc is not yet complete, I will withhold any judgements on her alignment until Episode IX is released.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#22728: Apr 1st 2018 at 12:19:04 AM

Yeah, but creator interpretation is a tricky thing, especially with only a single film to provide evidence. That's why Death of the Author tends to be more reliable as a means of interpreting films.

But if you want my guess as to what Johnson's view of the Jedi is, I'd say judging from this film and parallels with Looper it's "things that sound cool tend to turn out to be ugly and not as cool as they sounded when you look at them closer. But there's still an individual responsibility to be a good person despite occupying a messy world."

edited 1st Apr '18 12:19:37 AM by Tuckerscreator

Eldritcho Since: Nov, 2016
#22729: Apr 1st 2018 at 12:39:52 AM

[up] Sooooooo... yeah, he agree's with Kreia then?

Sounds kind of needless and egotistical when the prequels already deconstructed and reexamined most of the preconceptions about the force and the Jedi to do it, ya know, again.

edited 1st Apr '18 12:42:43 AM by Eldritcho

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#22730: Apr 1st 2018 at 12:54:31 AM

I don't he agrees with Kreia but I think they arrive at similar conclusions. I do wonder what would be a really good reconstruction of the Star War mythos? I had heard of deconstructions but what would be a good way to address these deconstructed tropes and try to piece them together?

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#22731: Apr 1st 2018 at 3:52:10 AM

[up] To me, based on his comments, Rian Johnson doesn't understand how the Jedi and Sith dynamic worked. The Jedi Order and the Light is allied with the Force. The Dark Side is the corruption of the Force, a natural corruption that can become unnatural if left unchecked. The Sith are the logical conclusion of this unnatural presence, Jedi or no Jedi.

Speaking of not understanding, I find it amusing that RJ once said that had the Internet exist today, fans would have been butthurt about Luke Skywalker losing to Darth Vader. Personally speaking, I don't recall anyone criticizing TESB about that. Many didn't like the cliffhanger ending, but no one was really complaining about Luke losing to the villain. In fact, it is almost tradition for the villain to win at the beginning to make the climax a lot more exciting and tension. So who would hate TESB outcome of inexperienced Luke vs senior Darth Vader?

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#22732: Apr 1st 2018 at 4:36:18 AM

[up]you never can tell with fans. I'm not saying he's 100% right but fandom is a tricky thing.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#22733: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:02:57 AM

[up][up] & [up] It isn't just fans that have trouble with interpretation of canon as the Legends has shown. Even the Force is subject to interpretation as there are some fans and writers who seem to have trouble with the way Lucas interprets the Force.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#22734: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:09:07 AM

[up][up][up]What individual fans thought of TESB at the time is basically lost to the ages because it's pre-internet, but we do know that it made a third less not adjusted for inflation, and 45% less when factoring in inflation. It wouldn't be surprising if people were complaining about that at the time. We do know that the now well known twist was incredibly divisive with many fans thinking Vader was lying (leading to the Yoda scene in Rot J).

Also, that the light side and the dark side both exist naturally was established as canon in the George Lucas produced Clone Wars series.

Finally, the dynamic between Jedi and Sith is ultimately irrelevant to the Sequel Trilogy as the Sith are all dead.

edited 1st Apr '18 5:12:31 AM by BigMadDraco

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#22735: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:13:45 AM

[up] But Snoke and Kylo are Sith in all but name - so it does matter.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#22736: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:18:57 AM

[up]The Sith are practitioners of a specific religion with a specific philosophy. While they are certainly practitioners of the dark side, that no more makes them Sith than believing in monotheism makes Jehovah's Witnesses Muslim.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#22737: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:20:18 AM

[up] We don't see any differences whatsoever between Sith and whatever Snoke's supposed to be and they clearly share the exact same philosophy, right down to Kylo killing his master.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#22738: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:29:48 AM

[up]Considering that Snoke hadn't even prepared for that possibility, it doesn't really seem like he was a believer in the rule of two.

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#22739: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:36:46 AM

Well even Sheev seemed to see it as more, guidelines, than actual rules. I mean he still had The Inquisitors running around, and Dooku had Ventress. So again I'm not seeing that as much different from Kylo and Snoke.

The problem with the philosophy that Luke spouts is that the Sith don't abide by it. The Jedi ending isn't going to stop Dark Siders from popping up. They, and pseudo-Sith like Kylo and Snoke are not just suddenly going to go "well I guess we wont be power-hungry or use the Dark Side anymore, since there's no Jedi around." No, if anything it just makes it easier for them.

And in the reverse, The Jedi don't need the Sith around to exist. They existed for like a thousand years believing the Sith to be extinct, because there were other matters to attend to.

And yeah, I think that Rian just fundamentally retconned what "balance" was supposed to be. And it makes things, more confusing. And trying to "grey" things up doesn't work when one side is so clearly more extreme and evil than the other one.

I mean the previous films had elements of moral greyness in them, but they were more subtle and believable about it. It wasn't shoved in your face to an absurd degree.

edited 1st Apr '18 5:38:10 AM by Punisher286

BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#22740: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:00:38 AM

[up]It's waffled back and forth what balance is supposed to mean long before Rian Johnson was involved. See the Mortis arc for example.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22741: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:17:09 AM

I thought the Mortis shit was cool at first, but it really muddled things down the line. Honestly, the Force at this point is so nebulous that I don't blame fans for choosing an interpretation they like and sticking with it.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#22742: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:59:20 AM

On the whole point of the Jedi, how harmful is it to have attachments? I mean, real life influences aside, was there a particular incident that gave the Jedi the idea of that rule?

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#22743: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:05:56 AM

Probably out of concern that Jedi with attachments would put their loved ones before anyone else..and also because Jedi force powers on non jedi..you get the picture.

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#22744: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:15:37 AM

In the Legends continuity, Qui Gon tells Obi Wan a story that exemplified why the Jedi adopted the no attachments rule. However that isn't canon anymore and I find it much more believable that it was a rule that they developed over time, as opposed to because of a single incident.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#22745: Apr 1st 2018 at 8:14:40 AM

I've always seen the Jedi as outlawing attachments not because they're inherently bad, but because they are an easy bridge to Dark Side and thus a potential problem - which is, on its own, true. The fact that they're sometimes a bridge back from the darkside was tossed with the bathwater, as was the idea that a person could train themselves to reconcile them, and then over the course of a few hundred years it became "attachments are wrong, period." Unless you're Ki Adi Mundi and have to have them.

The "no attachments" bit is one of the big places where the PT took Stoicism and highly exaggerated it: with Stoicism, you're not supposed to form attachments either - but their it's more along the lines of not letting your personal relationships become bogged down with selfish feelings. You love people, but don't so desire them that you jealously guard their presence. You miss people when they die, but don't grieve. You feel emotions, but don't let those emotions overtake or drive you. Etc.

The Jedi went the whole hog and said "don't feel emotions at all. Just in case."

Punisher286 Since: Jan, 2016
#22746: Apr 1st 2018 at 8:23:37 AM

Which is odd because Obi Wan feels a whole wide range of emotions throughout the PT. It's one of the reasons why he's maybe the best character there, he feels like a multi-dimensional person.

And he clearly has attachments (and TCW makes this all the more obvious).

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#22747: Apr 1st 2018 at 8:30:01 AM

As I mentioned once, The PT Jedi are represented by four characters across two categories: You have the traditionalists and the "reformers". The hard traditionalist (Mace Windu, who isn't willing to bulge one inch on Jedi traditions) the soft traditionalist (Yoda, who's still traditionalist but is more open to new outlooks). The hard reformer (resident Cowboy Cop Qui-Gon Jinn) and the soft reformer (Obi-Wan, who has some of Qui-Gon's rebellious streak but tampered). And Anakin is just kinda stuck in the crossfire of that four-way quagmire of religious perspectives.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#22748: Apr 1st 2018 at 8:46:30 AM

The Jedi went the whole hog and said "don't feel emotions at all. Just in case."

No, they didn't.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#22749: Apr 1st 2018 at 8:53:20 AM

The "no attachments" bit is one of the big places where the PT took Stoicism and highly exaggerated it: with Stoicism, you're not supposed to form attachments either - but their it's more along the lines of not letting your personal relationships become bogged down with selfish feelings. You love people, but don't so desire them that you jealously guard their presence. You miss people when they die, but don't grieve. You feel emotions, but don't let those emotions overtake or drive you. Etc.

The Jedi went the whole hog and said "don't feel emotions at all. Just in case."

As Anakin himself notes: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion — which I would define as…unconditional love — is essential to a Jedi's life. So, you might say that we are encouraged to love."

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#22750: Apr 1st 2018 at 9:10:26 AM

Quite frankly, the old Jedi traditions basically worked - the only time they didn't was when they intentionally ignored them and then when someone broke all their rules multiple times.

This is why I've always had a dim view of too-cool-for-school grey Jedi.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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