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The Culture of Rape.: Causes and Possible Solutions

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annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#276: Dec 18th 2011 at 12:51:20 PM

[wrong thread keep track of your tabs annebeeche]

edited 18th Dec '11 12:52:26 PM by annebeeche

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#277: Dec 18th 2011 at 12:51:45 PM

Yes, as Doma has noted, celebrity worship is fucked up.

@Drakyndra: Did you know that two out of three tiers on the sex offenders' registry are for non-violent sex crimes? While you're discussing society's outlook rather than legal framework specifically, sex laws get to be what they are because there's always popular support for making them more severe over time without any regard for how they actually mesh with reality. If it's 'against sex offenders' then it's a freebie to pass through congress. How is something like this indicative of a culture that takes non-violent sex crimes lightly?

edited 18th Dec '11 12:53:11 PM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#278: Dec 18th 2011 at 12:55:33 PM

The sexual registration scheme is meh. The problem with it really is that we have stupid people in their late teens with slightly younger significant others getting statutory rape charges because the significant other's parent's freak out. Whereas, the correct response is most likely (depending on the age of the significant other) either (if the significant other is rather young (< 15) "hey, dipshit, go away and wait a few years" or, if the significant other is probably old enough to think for themselves (16+) "hey, parents, they have to grow up eventually, please stop whining."

edited 18th Dec '11 12:56:01 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
AManInBlack oh no the snack table Since: Dec, 2011
oh no the snack table
#279: Dec 18th 2011 at 12:58:21 PM

Check out that Canadian rape culture

The abysmal conditions Canadian First Nations women live in is a tragedy that probably deserves its own separate discussion (just so that it's not lost in this absolutely awful thread). Anyone who's curious can start here.

edited 18th Dec '11 12:59:45 PM by AManInBlack

It's beautiful and so full of deep imagery that it doesn't surprise me to find that it has gone WAY over your head
feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#280: Dec 18th 2011 at 2:56:48 PM

I'd like to respond to something from earlier, which I've seen in similar form in a variety of other places:

For example, the constant behavior policing of rape victims: "How short was your skirt? How much did you have to drink? Were you in a dangerous area? Were you alone at night?" that never happens with any other crime. You never, say, ask victims of burglary if they left their windows open.

When I thought my car had been stolen, I was asked whether I'd left the door unlocked, and whether I'd left my keys in the glove compartment, and all I could do was grin sheepishly. (For what it's worth, the police still searched for the car—it turned out not to have been stolen, but they took the case seriously while the possibility existed.)

edited 18th Dec '11 2:57:35 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#281: Dec 18th 2011 at 2:59:44 PM

...well, for that specific quote, I'd say that all but the first question are actually relevant to an investigation, though it would be situational.

I am now known as Flyboy.
AllanAssiduity Since: Dec, 1969
#282: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:04:23 PM

I think that the quoted poster was not thinking so much of the police as they were of society in general.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#283: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:08:25 PM

Ah, alright, that makes more sense, then.

I am now known as Flyboy.
Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#284: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:11:12 PM

When I thought my car had been stolen, I was asked whether I'd left the door unlocked, and whether I'd left my keys in the glove compartment, and all I could do was grin sheepishly. (For what it's worth, the police still searched for the car—it turned out not to have been stolen, but they took the case seriously while the possibility existed.)

It's not a good way to treat rape victims. A person should be able to wear whatever they want without fear of being raped. Wearing a certain kind of clothing doesn't make a rape victim blameworthy; asking such questions is nothing more than unproductive, emotionally damaging, rape culture-esque victim blaming.

edited 18th Dec '11 3:13:02 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#285: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:13:05 PM

Society in general doesn't ask these things. Maybe a commiserating sort of I-told-you-so about past unsafe behavior from people at a certain level of acquaintance, but nothing accusatory unless you're a raving arse or in denial, and not to the rape victim's face even then.

Hail Martin Septim!
MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#286: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:18:05 PM

From something I scribed elsewhere...

One doesn’t have to buy into that...horseshit shibboleth about rape victims “asking for it” to recognize that protecting oneself from predation is a good idea. Retracing one’s steps in any given hazardous interaction could help reduce the odds of Mr Rapo’s weakness of character becoming one’s own problem in the future. Yet many pushers of the “power” meme seem to bristle at the mere mention of self-protection; to them, the notion of reducing one’s risk of victimization strikes them as pandering to a “rape culture”.

Enjoy the Inferno...
Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#287: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:22:01 PM

This is a very recent article about rape culture:

"The results revealed that overall, more of the men agreed with the rapists, only changing their minds when the source of the quote was revealed."

last year, a study by Haven showed that women were even less forgiving than men when it came to rape victims who had kissed their attacker, drank alcohol or "dressed provocatively".

Blame culture is problematic for obvious reasons, not least because its undefined boundaries occasionally lead, for example, broadsheet journalists to include details about an 11-year-old gang-rape victim such as whether she wore makeup, or looked older than her years, as if a child can be in anyway culpable for her own assault. What's more disturbing, when looking at the quotes used in the study, is that rapists and large sections of the general public seem to share a softened, "I'm not racist but" attitude for explaining away rape.

@ MDRA: There are reasonable types of rape prevention advice, like not taking drinks from strangers, and being around friends. Then, there is unreasonable, patriarchal advice like telling people how they should dress.

Society in general doesn't ask these things. Maybe a commiserating sort of I-told-you-so about past unsafe behavior from people at a certain level of acquaintance, but nothing accusatory unless you're a raving arse or in denial, and not to the rape victim's face even then.

There is in fact a blame culture. Here's an article from 2010 about it.

edited 18th Dec '11 3:28:48 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#288: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:30:56 PM

"You can tell when a woman is sexually attracted to you" is not, out of context, a pro-rape statement. Honestly, from the quotes they gave us, I'm amazed they didn't guess below chance. The rapists, with more of a vested interest in looking presentable, made a bigger stress on consent than the lads' mags, which are primarily concerned with masturbation fodder.

[up] "Raped after willingly getting into bed with an assailant"? I can see circumstances in which that happens, but I can't think it's a huge demographic.

edited 18th Dec '11 3:34:40 PM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#289: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:33:50 PM

[up]Let's play the game right now:

1. There's a certain way you can tell that a girl wants to have sex . . . The way they dress, they flaunt themselves.

2. Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?

3. A girl may like anal sex because it makes her feel incredibly naughty and she likes feeling like a dirty slut. If this is the case, you can try all sorts of humiliating acts to help live out her filthy fantasy.

4. Mascara running down the cheeks means they've just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.

5. What burns me up sometimes about girls is dick-teasers. They lead a man on and then shut him off right there.

6. Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won't do any harm either . . . ‘I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore' . . .

7. You know girls in general are all right. But some of them are bitches . . . The bitches are the type that . . . need to have it stuffed to them hard and heavy.

8. Escorts . . . they know exactly how to turn a man on. I've given up on girlfriends. They don't know how to satisfy me, but escorts do.

9. You'll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they'll do it willingly.

10. There's nothing quite like a woman standing in the dock accused of murder in a sex game gone wrong . . . The possibility of murder does bring a certain frisson to the bedroom.

11. Girls ask for it by wearing these mini-skirts and hotpants . . . they're just displaying their body . . . Whether they realise it or not they're saying, ‘Hey, I've got a beautiful body, and it's yours if you want it.'

12. You do not want to be caught red-handed . . . go and smash her on a park bench. That used to be my trick.

13. Some women are domineering, but I think it's more or less the man who should put his foot down. The man is supposed to be the man. If he acts the man, the woman won't be domineering.

14. I think if a law is passed, there should be a dress code . . . When girls dress in those short skirts and things like that, they're just asking for it.

15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim.

16. I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.

"Raped after willingly getting into bed with an assailant"? I can see circumstances in which that happens, but I can't think it's a huge demographic.

I don't understand the point that you're trying to make in this statement.

edited 18th Dec '11 3:36:52 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
AgeAndYouth It really was, though from Floppy Coppying HQ Since: Dec, 2011
It really was, though
#290: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:36:53 PM

Jezebel tends to embody most of the negative stereotypes that people have about feminism, so I'd take anything they publish with a large pinch of salt.

(FWIW, they once wrote about 1,000 words on whether or not "I Just Had Sex" by the Lonely Island was supportive or condemning Third-Wave Feminism. Things like that.)

He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#291: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:37:56 PM

@ 287:

There are reasonable types of rape prevention advice, like not taking drinks from strangers, and being around friends. Then, there is unreasonable, patriarchal advice like telling people how they should dress.

Agreed, though I notice that the former is often equated with "victim-blaming" as much as the latter.

BTW, that first article you linked was mentioned earlier in the thread.

edited 18th Dec '11 3:53:10 PM by MRDA1981

Enjoy the Inferno...
AllanAssiduity Since: Dec, 1969
#292: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:38:44 PM

"Don't dress provocatively" only means something if dressing in a provocative manner actually does mean that one is more likely to be raped. And even then, it's sick victim-blaming.

If you'll forgive the brief statistics diatribe, if the majority of rapes are carried out by "people you know", then dressing provocatively will likely have no effect on them. Indeed, almost all stats I've seen say that provocative behaviour on the part of the victim is rare (often being below 5%).

edited 18th Dec '11 3:39:41 PM by AllanAssiduity

Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#293: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:38:45 PM

Jezebel tends to embody most of the negative stereotypes that people have about feminism, so I'd take anything they publish with a large pinch of salt.

(FWIW, they once wrote about 1, 000 words on whether or not "I Just Had Sex" by the Lonely Island was supportive or condemning Third-Wave Feminism. Things like that.)

Thank you for the advice, but in the context of this conversation, you're performing an ad hominem fallacy.

edited 18th Dec '11 3:39:15 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#294: Dec 18th 2011 at 3:56:19 PM

1 - freebie

2 - rapist: justification

3 - freebie

4 - lad mag: blatant masturbation fodder, cheeky terminology

5 - not sure, but pathetic sexual frustration doesn't equate to rape.

6 - lad mag: masturbation fodder masquerading as relationship advice

7 - rapist, not in the mood for pleading innocence. If this is a lad mag, it's a short story, and I don't think that's how they operate. (If it is, then you'd better not have a double standard when it's called "non-con" or "dub-con".)

8 - lad mag: appeals to the bachelor demographic.

9 - I would say PUA manual if I could. As it is, lad mag.

10 - lad mag. The elaborate fantasy shit again. (That archaism should be out-of-bounds to horny losers, IMO. I'm very partial to it.)

11 - rapist. Self-justifying.

12 - freebie. I get the feeling the ellipsis is concealing some important context, and that this may be true of the other quotes as well.

13 - marital rapist, but out of context, it sounds like a fundie who isn't talking specifically about sex.

14 - rapist.

15 - lad mag.

16 - rapist.

The people I've identified as rapists are either self-justifying, or much lower on the lurid detail.

EDIT: What I'm saying is that I wouldn't blame the survey objects for not wrapping their heads around rape in the middle of consensual sex. Furthermore, false accusations there have to be through the roof.

edited 18th Dec '11 4:02:04 PM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#295: Dec 18th 2011 at 4:18:05 PM

RE: Jezebel: I'll just repost one I wrote earlier.

There's lots of conflation in that article; and, I suspect, tarring by association. Just because a rapist says something doesn't automatically make it rapey.

Most of them are just talking about consensual seduction, pet fantasies, and masochistic turn-ons; a few are suspect (7, 11) but, judging by the ellipses, possibly decontextualized; the only one that strikes me as out-and-out fucked-up is #14.

‎#10 just made me laugh my arse off! How could anyone interpret that in any other way than: "I wanna be ridden ragged by Catherine Tramell"?

Enjoy the Inferno...
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#296: Dec 18th 2011 at 4:26:04 PM

Ah, crap, was it lower down in the article the whole time? At least you snared me in the Inverted Pyramid Trap. Anyway: Ten for thirteen, counting one forfeit. None too shabby.

Hail Martin Septim!
Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#297: Dec 18th 2011 at 4:29:39 PM

EDIT: What I'm saying is that I wouldn't blame the survey objects for not wrapping their heads around rape in the middle of consensual sex.

Do you mean that a person shouldn't be suspected of rape if the alleged victim consented to get into bed, but did not consent to have sex?

Furthermore, false accusations there have to be through the roof.

What evidence do you have that false rape accusations are "through the roof?" Are you saying it because you heard it from someone else? This is rape culture.

Between 2 to 8 percent of rape accusations are determined false. It's very disturbing to hear people propagate ideas that rape victims are liars when sexual assault is such an extremely underreported crime (60% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police). When rape actually is reported, there's a 50% chance of arrest.

edited 18th Dec '11 4:34:03 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#298: Dec 18th 2011 at 4:37:54 PM

How the hell do they collect the underreported rape statistic? At least that website is milder about it than most; I've seen the statistic written as high as 95%. (Further proof that the number was essentially made up on the spot.) And there's a 42% acquittal rate into the bargain? False accusation is always a tough thing to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but you can't tell me, as that graphic does, that all those acquittals and throw-outs are unjustified.

If you consent to sex with someone, then you must really hate some particular kind of sex, and he must know it, for there to be rape midway through. If this is not the case, we're talking regretted consensual sex. Just spitballing.

edited 18th Dec '11 4:39:54 PM by DomaDoma

Hail Martin Septim!
Dekunobo from underground bunker Since: Aug, 2011
#299: Dec 18th 2011 at 4:48:55 PM

[up]Thanks for posting that link. I've of course heard that a lot of rapes aren't even reported but hadn't read specific numbers. So really, the 1/5 number might be even higher.

edited 18th Dec '11 4:49:55 PM by Dekunobo

Grain Only One Avatar from South Northwest Earth Since: Oct, 2009
Only One Avatar
#300: Dec 18th 2011 at 4:57:46 PM

Thanks for posting that link. I've of course heard that a lot of rapes aren't even reported but hadn't read specific numbers. So really, the 1/5 number might be even higher.

Thank you for appreciating it.

How the hell do they collect the underreported rape statistic? At least that website is milder about it than most; I've seen the statistic written as high as 95%. (Further proof that the number was essentially made up on the spot.) And there's a 42% acquittal rate into the bargain? False accusation is always a tough thing to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but you can't tell me, as that graphic does, that all those acquittals and throw-outs are unjustified.

I'm not a statistician, and neither are you, but I think that the Bureau of Justice's report is more legitimate than the rape doubting of an anonymous internet person.

I don't think that it's impossible for a person to lie about being raped. I think that the public's perception of the prevalence of false rape accusation is disproportionate to the actual number of false accusations. And That's Terrible.

edited 18th Dec '11 4:58:18 PM by Grain

Anime geemu wo shinasai!

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