This is in addition to what Iaculus is saying * .
edited 18th Dec '11 6:26:49 AM by AllanAssiduity
Fine, if you really want me to explain what's wrong with what you said, I'll do it. But first, I'd like to tackle your most recent post, if you don't mind.
Yeah, I think that when things are generally accepted in civilized society (e.g. victim blaming for having something stolen is entirely different from victim blaming for rape and that the former, while a bit of a dick move, is in no way comparable to saying that rape victims had it coming to them) you do tend to have a lot of exposure to those. A minority viewpoint is always going to be contentious, so saying a point of view flat out with out back up is likely to get you called out on your shit. Carrying on:
What the law punishes and what society supports are two entirely different things. Just because we are not as bad as countries which force rape victims to marry their rapists, does not mean that we are free of problems. As a society, to have such a high rape-rate implies that there is some societal problem that is contributing to rape, hence a "rape culture".
Firstly, I have barely any idea of what you mean by "Privilege and Marginalization" in this context, but I can guess from the preceding sentence that you were basically saying" "I am judged because someone stole my laptop, why is that OK but blaming rape victims for being raped is considered wrong?" In which case I think you should read what you wrote back to yourself and then spend several days introspectively thinking about what has gone wrong in your life in order for you to think so awfully.
No idea what you're trying to say with this, am somewhat intrigued by "dolphin rape jokes" but at the same time it just seems like a waste of space what you've written about.
All I do, is sit down at the computer, and start hittin' the keys. Getting them in the right order, that's the trick.![]()
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Status and privilege doesn't just shield you from the repercussions of rape. Ward Churchill got away with plagiarism for years before people decided that he wasn't a respected professor after all, given that he was kind of an asshole. Same for every criminally corrupt businessman you have ever heard of.
Those arguments about rape accusers aren't used by people at large: they're used by lawyers. Lawyers are paid to be sleazy.
I didn't even know men's magazines had advice columns. They're catering to losers, so I can see it to a point, but somehow, I don't think roofies or guns are a feature.
Societal opinions about gender are much, much harsher toward men who are raped than women. (I'm also working-class, and from an anti-Semite's point of view, Jewish, and on the rare occasion that I'm insulted accordingly by a snob or an anti-Semite, it's about the same as being called an idiot by a random acquaintance. None too painful.)
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Rape isn't to be put on a Serious Business Pedestal above all other crimes. Crimes that harm others are not to be excused, but fortunately, I did no such thing.
I left my laptop in the break room. It was unwise. Taking a drink from some frat boy you've never met is also unwise. This does not mean either victim had it coming, nor did I say that.
Check out that Canadian rape culture, by Gar!
Both stigmas are undesirable. What I am saying is that rape is not a special case, and no more ingrained in the culture than theft.
edited 18th Dec '11 6:49:39 AM by DomaDoma
Hail Martin Septim!really? That doesn't quite match up with what I've heard said about quite of a lot of rape victims from non-lawyers.
You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, there are problems that you're shielded from because you're (more than likely) a white, middle-class male and so you don't have to deal with these things? You're generalizing that the culture of people who happen to have a low-income also have a completely different set of cultural beliefs than you. Ignoring the faultiness of this premise for a minute, there are many, many, many more poor people than there are middle-class and up. If it's just 'bad neighborhoods' that have poor opinions of rape victims, <I>that's still a majority.</I>
Let me ask: Have you ever met, or even just vaguely known someone who's been raped?
He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.The only thing you've got right is that I'm white. I'm female; I'm working-class; I've lived in some crappy neighborhoods, including the one I'm living in right now - they're just not East St. Louis crappy. Oh yeah, and I was raped as a kid. The offender's family members, including his alcoholic sister (probably the most negligent mother I've ever known), were not exactly thrilled with him.
And if I were none of those things, my argument would be no way invalidated. The messenger is not the message.
edited 18th Dec '11 7:47:14 AM by DomaDoma
Hail Martin Septim!I'm making generalizations about society because I'm talking about American society as a whole. I don't have the time or the patience to write up 300 million separate accounts of how each US citizen feels about rape. I'll admit that I'm begging the question a bit, but the point of this thread is to discuss why rape is considered acceptable in any way, shape, or form, right?
He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.In what world is rape not considered a heinous crime worthy of immediate castration and/or execution? It's one of the most taboo things we have in American society (due to its link with sexuality, which we're still very prudish about).
I'm not seeing any acceptance of rape as normal or any belittling of confirmed rape cases as being laugh off-able in American society. If anything, I feel that the sheer sensationalism of rape may be encouraging coverups and excuse-mongering, because people don't want to believe that random normal, nice people could actually do such a horrible thing, so they make excuses to not believe it ever happened.
There is a definite issue with third parties taking those kinds of actions, but the root cause is that people take rape so seriously on an emotional level that they have no coping mechanisms for how to deal with it. Our culture of shame re: sexuality has made rape such a horrible thing that we have no practical way to deal with it - almost every reaction is emotionally-charged.
And for every instance of an in-denial blame-shifter that crops up, it's really not hard at all to find another third party who's all for assuming the potential-rapist is guilty based on the victim's word alone and immediately having him castrated or murdered. Scroll down a few threads on this very forum for another topic on the same.
Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Rape isn't sensationalized, at least not any more than any other crime is in this day and age. Sex and violence (and violent sex) are played up for tension and drama in a lot of Western works, and rape is often reduced to a token display of "terrible event" for a female character. I think it desensitizes people to how terrible and prevalent rape really is.
As to the second part of your post: Is there some unemotional, correct way to respond to rape? A lot of people have strong emotions about rape because it's objectively horrible. Fetishisation of rape is something that really shouldn't exist in any civilized culture, and there aren't 'two sides' of rape. There may be two sides of a given story (and dispute about whether or not rape happened) but there is nothing positive about rape itself.
He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.When most rape victims are too ashamed to even admit that they were raped in the first place, how can you possibly argue that we are in any way, shape or form 'desensitized' to rape as a culture? Yes, we see lots of horrible things in media, but count how many rapes you see on tv versus how many murders. There's a big difference - rape is still considered worse than anything else because of the shamefulness of sex. And your example of a 'token event' actually works against your argument - in Western media, the standard Rape As Backstory plot device uses rape explicitly as an exceptionally traumatic and even singularly-defining event that helped to fuel much of the victim's emotional development and future actions - either for strength and independence or simply revenge. Now, if you were discussing JAPANESE media, I could maybe see the point, since instances of rape 'just happening' like an action scene without being used to further character development in any way seem to be somewhat common in hentai-horror works. But then, I haven't seen any studies that directly correlated media depictions of crimes with actual crimes rates in any case.
I won't pretend to know exactly what the appropriate level of negative emotions is for experiencing rape. And since response to sexuality is a very individualized issue, response to rape may very well be too, so some people can be excused for reacting differently than others to a good extent. But I will say that when we're at a point where people start saying they'd rather be killed than raped, as I've witnessed people saying in other places, we've gone too friggin' far. I would actually like to see it addressed indirectly - first, by ridding society of our shame and guilt complexes regarding consensual sex, and then seeing how that bleeds over into attitudes about rape before making any further judgment calls.
I'm also very wary about your fetishization statement, because that comes dangerously close to telling adults what they can and can't fantasize about of their own free will. I'm not personally into the whole BDSM thing, but you'd have to be blind not to notice that it's a very popular group of fetishes, and that trying to censor consensual behavior like that will do more harm than good. That's as futile as trying to stop theft by making it illegal to roleplay a thief character in rpgs.
Of course, maybe all that, too, would go away if we had healthier attitudes about sex to begin with.
edited 18th Dec '11 8:57:02 AM by Karkadinn
Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
You seem to be missing one point in your theory there. Rape is considered an unimaginably terrible horrible thing but only if it fits certain criteria regarding violence, the rapist and the identity and behaviour of the victim.
If it doesn't fit that specific criteria, if the victim went to a frat house and drunk too much, if she got a lift home from her boyfriend, if she let a guy buy her drinks while wearing a short skirt - and especially if she was a sex worker of any description - so very often it isn't considered rape. Instead it is endlessly questioned and doubted, because the fact she didn't say yes is considered less important than every other thing she (or he) did.
That's what rape culture is; it means claiming rape is a terrible thing while simultaneously denying the majority of it's victims that label.
It means that an underage girl who was pressured to drink, drugged, traumatised, crying and bruised whose rapist confessed to forcing her into sex can have her situation be described as not being a real rape on national television by a film star, because the man who did it won an Oscar.
The owner of this account is temporarily unavailable. Please leave your number and call again later.The fuck is this shit?
I am now known as Flyboy.![]()
I see one Roman Polanski rape and raise you one Teddy Kennedy manslaughter. Idol worship is toxic (and I think the tragic backstories have something to do with both cases), but that's not particular to rape.
As for the rest of it - minus the prostitutes; the thing about living an underground lifestyle is that it is difficult to go to the cops - every one of those cases is still regarded as loathsome by everyone I know.
edited 18th Dec '11 11:58:39 AM by DomaDoma
Hail Martin Septim!![]()
The Roman Polanski case
. Particularly notable given that a large number of other folk in the film industry signed a petition
saying that he should get off scot-free.
I can't even what is this I don't even GAOASHFOUHEDFOAS Hoif 1
...
Fuck France. >_<
I am now known as Flyboy.Hardly just France.
What's precedent ever done for us?The one shred of ambiguity here is that the victim would really rather not go through court about it now - but still, the guy took shelter in Europe and put out successful films for the decades it took for her to come to that conclusion. Then again, The Amazing Atheist (hardly known for treading lightly around any bullshit) took the line that it was just statutory rape, and I wouldn't put it past a lot of the celebrities who signed that petition to be similarly misinformed.
Hail Martin Septim!France is the country that happily shields him.
What a load of bullshit. Why do we have an extradition treaty with... well, anybody in Europe besides Britain, really, since none of them care to actually extradite worthless fucks like this bastard anyhow...?
I am now known as Flyboy.

What planet are you living on?
As for your theft example, one person is calling you an idiot because of their opinion of you in particular. They are not calling you an idiot because of societal opinions towards your gender, ethnicity, or economic status. Bad analogy.
edited 18th Dec '11 6:25:56 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?