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A different perspective on female/male protagonists

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Aninha Since: Dec, 1969
#1: Dec 13th 2011 at 5:29:14 PM

In my opinion, while it is true that there is a bias leaning to "while male = neutral and anything other = specific", I don't think we have so few female leads or that this is where the real problem's at. Below is a list of movies with female protagonists, you don't have to read it, more to make the point they aren't so few.

The cat returns - Grave of the fireflies - Howl's moving castle - Kiki's delivery service - Laputa:castle in the sky - My neighbor totoro - Nausicaaof the valley of the wind - Ponyo on the cliff by the sea - Princess Mononoke - The secret world of Arriety - Spirited away - Whispers of the heart -

Then we have the princesses movies by disney, Lilo and Stitch, Coraline and next year's Brave. I understand there's still tons more of male leads, but we don't have it that bad.

I think the problem really lies in the unfortunate association made with both female and male leads. It seems that today, if a woman/girl is supposed to be the protagonist, she's either typically girly (which is taken for granted) or the opposite (and then the entire story has to both explain and reference that all the time). So we still have: girls = girly and anything else is a deviation. Try to find a story in which an untypical female lead isn't surrounded by girly (read normal) girls to highlight how unlike everyone else she is.

Or a story in which a guy has "feminine" qualities and that isn't a mockery.

Your input?

edited 13th Dec '11 5:32:39 PM by Aninha

Torquey Dreamworks Since: Oct, 2010
Aninha Since: Dec, 1969
#3: Dec 13th 2011 at 5:42:43 PM

Thansk, this was really a pretty interesting article. Kinda surprised they don't show black men with white women because white men would be jeaulous.

Psi001 Since: Oct, 2010
#4: Dec 13th 2011 at 5:57:21 PM

The problem is that due to the hypocritical treatment of ethnic/gender "equality" and being politically correct, many writers are afraid to write non white males as normal flawed characters, and thus develop such other groups by their group rather than their individual personality.

What's more they try to be weaselly and patronising about it, hense the overwelming Positive Discrimination in some medias, because for nearly every common humanized flaw there is someone finding an offensive hidden undertone in it.

As a result protagonist of other gender/races are rare because, well, the same reason think other gender/races protagonists are so important, people base characters on groups instead of on who they are as people, so it's just easier to make a white male that are free game and can be developed anyway they want.

Aninha Since: Dec, 1969
#5: Dec 13th 2011 at 6:06:40 PM

"The problem is that due to the hypocritical treatment of ethnic/gender "equality" and being politically correct, many writers are afraid to write non white males as normal flawed characters,..."

Are they now? They don't seem to be afraid of criticism in making stereotypes all over the place, the most annoying being the token characters, seriously, sometimes I'd rather there to be no girls at all than the girls we get. Such in Naruto, I'd rather see just the guys than put up with Sakura basing a huge part of her life on whether a boy likes her or not. Or even Young Justice, apparently Aqualad doesn't get sad, disappointed or otherwise react like a normal individual, just because he's black he has to take whatever he's given?

I get what you're saying though, in The princess and the frog, people gave Tiana crap because she had curly hair. sad

"What's more they try to be weaselly and patronising about it, hense the overwelming Positive Discrimination in some medias, because for nearly every common humanized flaw there is someone finding an offensive hidden undertone in it."

I agree. They're the worst of scrappies usually.

BagofMagicFood Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Dec 13th 2011 at 6:26:10 PM

I love this line:

It's like Hollywood decided that we were all psychotically jealous ex-boyfriends, or strict dads, and everyone just went with it.

20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#7: Dec 13th 2011 at 8:13:48 PM

Am I the only one to see irony in a list comprised mostly of anime in the western animation forum? Especially when it's answering a complaint about recent American animation lacking female leads?

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#8: Dec 13th 2011 at 10:56:47 PM

[up] That was the first thing I noticed, and I was thinking about mentioning it, but eh.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Aninha Since: Dec, 1969
#9: Dec 14th 2011 at 6:08:01 AM

[up][up] But they're from the Ghibli studios, which aren't obscure in the western, so I think it's fair to consider them among the immediate options someone looking for a female lead has. Anyway I was trying to adress the issue more generally, my point being that the greatest problem isn't in the quantity, but the diversity. But ok, we'll focus just on the west. Think about western animation female leads: Which aren't princesses? Which aren't passive leads, mere observers waiting for romance to solve their lives? And the male leads: Which aren't trying to save the world?

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#10: Dec 14th 2011 at 7:15:21 AM

[up]I don't even watch western animation all that much, but there is the whole Friendship Is Magic thing that's all over the internet. There is also the Powerpuff Girls and Winx Club. Oh, almost forgot Kim Possible and Totally Spies. Someone on the other thread also reminded me of My Life As A Teenage Robot. Shows that feature a female protagonist are hardly traditional, but they have been produced quite often on recent years.

As for male leads that aren't trying to save the world: Ed Edd And Eddy are just trying to get jawbreakers. Titeuf isn't particularly productive in the saving department either. There's also Doug, aaaaaaand.....Yeah, not that much, I admit.

edited 14th Dec '11 7:27:58 AM by Kayeka

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#11: Dec 14th 2011 at 7:33:32 AM

But they're from the Ghibli studios, which aren't obscure in the western

There is a difference between "not obscure to animation fans" and "not obscure to the general public."

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Aninha Since: Dec, 1969
#12: Dec 14th 2011 at 7:44:21 AM

[up][up] Friendship is Magic, Powerpuff girls and My life as a teenage robot are definitely exceptions to the rule when it comes to stereotypes.

Winx Club: 7 characters, 4 are princesses.

Kim Possible: I can't say all that much about this show because I haven't seen nearly all the episodes. But from what I've seen, apart from some cool action she's very stereotypically a teenage girl, many episodes focusing on her shopping obssessions, her inability to talk to boys and so on.

edited 14th Dec '11 7:50:42 AM by Aninha

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#14: Dec 14th 2011 at 9:27:48 AM

RE: Kim Possible having some stereotypical teenage girl traits: But is there necessarily anything wrong with that? Let's be totally honest, they're not too apparent, and even when they are, it's realistic. You can't expect someone in high school, male or female, not to worry about such things, especially regarding relationships.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#15: Dec 14th 2011 at 9:34:06 AM

[up]I believe mesieur operates under the notion that Real Women Don't Wear Dresses.

Aninha Since: Dec, 1969
#16: Dec 14th 2011 at 9:40:41 AM

[up][up]No, not necessarily, but it's sad these stereotypical traits are obligatory, as though girl characters can't be imagined without them. It's true there are girls like that, but there are girls whose traits lie inbetween the scale of "100% "tomboy"" to "100% "girly girl"", but how often do we see them represented in the media?

And even when it comes to being girly, not necessarily a girly girl will love pink, be always talking about boys, be shopaholic and superficial.

edited 14th Dec '11 10:00:24 AM by Aninha

MoeDantes cuter, cuddlier Edmond from the Land of Classics Since: Nov, 2010
cuter, cuddlier Edmond
#17: Dec 14th 2011 at 10:36:45 AM

Am I the only one to see irony in a list comprised mostly of anime in the western animation forum? Especially when it's answering a complaint about recent American animation lacking female leads?

I noticed that too.

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Aninha Since: Dec, 1969
#18: Dec 14th 2011 at 10:50:25 AM

Should I delet it?

I'll ask something different: If you had the influence over the next movie or show a major animation studio would release, what would you ask them when it comes to a female or male lead? Or if you could make your own?

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#19: Dec 14th 2011 at 10:51:31 AM

Should I delet it?

Nah, and don't delete it either. Then nobody who reads the thread will have any idea what half the people here are talking about.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Psi001 Since: Oct, 2010
#21: Dec 14th 2011 at 4:41:04 PM

I've not seen much of Kim Possible, but I've heard that some fans (and looking at some pages tropers as well) object to it because the female protagonist is so idealized. She is hyper competant and thus the sympathy and development is usually more with her moronic male sidekick which they are more free to humanize. This is second hand source though, so if fans can debunk this then fine.

edited 14th Dec '11 4:41:51 PM by Psi001

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#22: Dec 14th 2011 at 4:50:57 PM

No, she's pretty much a Mary Sue a lot of the time. I find her to be likable enough, though.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
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