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SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
Problem Child
#137251: Jul 2nd 2013 at 4:47:45 AM

40k stories are good if the writers acknowledge now ridiculous the premise is.

Ciaphas Cain comes to mind.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?
LiorVal Since: May, 2013
#137252: Jul 2nd 2013 at 4:57:08 AM

Coras and Garrus are in the main room or somewhere else?

SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#137259: Jul 2nd 2013 at 6:53:33 AM

This is more directed to a certain group of people, but...

Why do you consider Griff a self-insert?

I mean, by definition, a self insert is a character that has similarities with and is meant to represent the author, but Griff and Chris don't really have much in common at all. Griff is brown, Chris is black; Griff is an asshole, Chris is not; Griff's life sucks, Chris' does not; and so on.

As far as I can see, he's just an OC, not a self-insert.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
GameSpazzer The Beta Male from Against! The! Wall! Since: Jun, 2010
The Beta Male
#137260: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:04:11 AM

There are different kinds of self-inserts, just as there are different kinds of Sues.

1. Griff's life does not suck. At all. This is so the author can live vicariously through a character where everything goes right for them.

2. Griff has no personality. This is because one isn't needed, as he is merely a cardboard cutout for the author to put his face through.

3. Griff interacts almost exclusively with attractive women, and even the "solution" that was developed involved him having another few ex-girlfriends somewhere.

4. Griff spoke excessively about his submission fetish before we asked Napkins to cut it out.

5. Griff got new powers from nowhere. Said powers didn't even conform to the standard rules of the 'verse they were from.

6. Griff is meta so the author can make comments about series he likes insteadof having to build up relationships manually.

7. Griff's dialogue is melodramatic and clunky. You often see this, again, with the living vicariously thing, with the author wanting to sound cool.

So you can forgive me if he tripped more than a few alarms.

For future reference, if anyone has any fetishes they want to create a character to exercise, take it to the Nunnery. The next person to do this will be kicked out permanently, new or not. One-strike-you're-out-rule, remember?

edited 2nd Jul '13 7:26:16 AM by GameSpazzer

MY SOUL IS DARK BUT MY HAIR IS COLORFUL — Brahian Pokémon Alchemist
Azure Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist from The World Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist
#137261: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:09:10 AM

Pretty much what Spaz said.

PM box is Closed, Indefinitely Friend Code: 3368-4181-6850
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#137262: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:14:58 AM

1. So because a character's life does not suck it automatically means it's wish-fullfilment? Sorry Spaz, but as Phi-Ooo would say, "Not follow"...

2. Griff has a personality. He's a douche.

3. Griff interacts with attractive women not because they're attractive, but beacause the attractive women in question work well (Or Chris considers them to work well) alongside him, whether it's lovey-dovey stuff with Shizune, witty back-and-forth with Majora, or silly shenanigans with Shubby.

4. This was a joke / Hand Wave for the Ship Tease with Majora.

5. I missed this...

6 and 7 are percieved writing flaws, but have nothing to do with self-insertions and wish-fulfillment and all that shitzu.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
ChrissieMcNapkins bruhonetta from the traphouse Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
bruhonetta
#137263: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:17:04 AM

I sincerely do not know why I kept talking about the whole submission thing. I'm truly disgusted with myself for that. I have no idea how many times I've said I'm sorry for that but I'm sorry. I really am.

There is one thing that I will fight on.

Griff is in no way a self insert.

I do not imagine myself as him in any way, shape, or form. I get no pleasure from any of his interactions.

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.
GameSpazzer The Beta Male from Against! The! Wall! Since: Jun, 2010
The Beta Male
#137264: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:23:05 AM

1. That is not what I said and you know it. Everything goes right for Griff. Everything. Everything that goes "wrong" either works out for him within five pages anyway, or he isn't even bothered by it.

2. That's not a personality. He was completely bland after he took that one "trait" away. A single trait does not a character make. That's lazy writing.

3. ...No comment. None at all.

4. No, that's not what I meant. I meant he would lovingly describe how he would roll over and place Shizune on top of him, and talk about how much he loves women who are in charge of him, on and on, yadda yadda yadda, spooning for two weeks.

5. He had a Persona card that he could take out and show to people despite never defeating a Shadow to get it, and that Persona cards are not physical things. He learned to do Ki blasts after watching Bardock for five minutes. There was another I forgot. He was instantly a master swordsman after getting a sword. And Trip all but handed out the Wild Card. None of these went anywhere.

6 and 7. On the contrary, most self-inserts are very meta. Browse through fanfiction.net if you're feeling brave. They're everywhere. And we will agree to disagree on the latter.

@Napkins: I am explaining to Pancake why we classified him as such. Whether he is or not, you cannot deny he definitely fits the profile.

edited 2nd Jul '13 7:32:46 AM by GameSpazzer

MY SOUL IS DARK BUT MY HAIR IS COLORFUL — Brahian Pokémon Alchemist
Azure Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist from The World Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist
#137265: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:29:39 AM

I don't think being a self-insert is an inherently bad thing.

But yeah when a character has no hardships and has his would be challenges whisked away by a divine being every time this is a bad thing.

He only interacts with accractive women. Yes this is a bad thing, because this means he's only there for shipping nonsense.

Also meta is a lazy way to do character interaction. Its fine as a joke but implemented in anything other than a joke and it becomes the writer not caring to put time into having his character build relationships, that aren't sexual in some way.

PM box is Closed, Indefinitely Friend Code: 3368-4181-6850
ChrissieMcNapkins bruhonetta from the traphouse Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
bruhonetta
#137266: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:29:59 AM

I'll comment on these:

4.-vomits everywhere-

5.Remember when I first came to the discussion thread and I basically said a good chunk of those supposed "powers" were null and void?

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#137267: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:34:28 AM

1. This does not automatically mean self insert, it just means Chris does not like writing sad scenarios. Besides, he's otherwise physically abused enoug to count as Laser-Guided Karma tongue.

2. Well, it's not a deep personality, but a personality nonetheless

3. Why no comment?

4. Well, Chris said this was an error and he's sorry. This doesn't really matter anymore.

5. Okay... This is kinda bad. Though it's excusable if Chris hasn't watched the shows/played the games the powers in question come from and doesn't know how they're meant to work.

6. But not all self-inserts are meta, and not all meta characters are self-inserts. And then again, this isn't a self-insert indication inasmuch as it's just (percieved) bad writing.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
GameSpazzer The Beta Male from Against! The! Wall! Since: Jun, 2010
The Beta Male
#137268: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:35:34 AM

Yes, I do. The fact remains that they did happen, and they reflected negatively on you when we were analysing your character to figure out what the actual fuck. They continue to reflect badly on you as well, considering that this is a lot of crap to have piled against you this early in the game. There are rough starts, and then there is this. I hesitate to pull the Trevor card, but... well, you've hit prety much all of the same checkpoints as he did in the same timeframe.

@Pancake: You seem to miss the point. The idea is that all those indicators combined point to a self insert. You asked a question, I answered it. Individually, no. Together, hell yes. And yes, these things do matter. They did not unhappen, and they affected what we thought about Napkins and his writing.

And as for 1, again. It worked out for him in the end. All of it. Absolutely all of it. There's wanting to avoid sad scenarios, and then there's an Addy-style need to win all the time no matter what.

edited 2nd Jul '13 7:39:47 AM by GameSpazzer

MY SOUL IS DARK BUT MY HAIR IS COLORFUL — Brahian Pokémon Alchemist
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#137269: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:44:03 AM

It's just... Most of these things point to a (percieved) crappily written character not a wish-fulfillment self-insert.

Also, don't pull the Trevor card. Czer was the worst character to ever "grace" the FG. To compare Griff to him is a bit of an insult to Chris.

edited 2nd Jul '13 7:45:19 AM by WackyPancake

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
GameSpazzer The Beta Male from Against! The! Wall! Since: Jun, 2010
The Beta Male
#137270: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:47:40 AM

If you say so. I doubt I will be able to convince you otherwise.

It's true.

Fetish card — check.

Ass powers — check.

Wangst — check.

Nonsensical backstory — check.

Failed attempt at lovable asshole — check.

No true personality — check.

Things thrown in for author appeal, despite them going nowhere due to not planning any of it out — check.

Managing to do all of this in his first few months here and failing to pick up any and all hints — check.

It doesn't pay to skirt around the issue about these things. If it needs to be said, I will say it.

edited 2nd Jul '13 7:49:40 AM by GameSpazzer

MY SOUL IS DARK BUT MY HAIR IS COLORFUL — Brahian Pokémon Alchemist
GameSpazzer The Beta Male from Against! The! Wall! Since: Jun, 2010
The Beta Male
#137272: Jul 2nd 2013 at 7:59:53 AM

I'm sorry, but it needed to be said how bad things had gotten over time. I think the only things he needed to become the next Czer was to try submission spooning again with Shizune after we said stop, tackling seven year-old girls, and attempting repeatedly to make friends with people who clearly want nothing to do with him at best, and want his head nailed to a post at worst, for no adequately explored reason.

MY SOUL IS DARK BUT MY HAIR IS COLORFUL — Brahian Pokémon Alchemist
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#137273: Jul 2nd 2013 at 8:05:37 AM

...

Look Spaz, Griff may (and only may, some of those are very debatable) suffer from all those problems, but significantly less so than Czer. Don't blow things out of proportion. Czer was a total mess, Griff not so much. He may be flawed, but he's still salvageable.

And please, don't pull that comparison again.

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."
GameSpazzer The Beta Male from Against! The! Wall! Since: Jun, 2010
The Beta Male
#137274: Jul 2nd 2013 at 8:09:58 AM

It is a valid comparison, so I have made it. You don't like to agree with me, but it is the truth.

MY SOUL IS DARK BUT MY HAIR IS COLORFUL — Brahian Pokémon Alchemist
WackyPancake from My computer. Since: May, 2011
#137275: Jul 2nd 2013 at 8:12:16 AM

No, it's pointlessly harsh.

"Czer was one of the worst characters in the FG, Griff is one of the worst characters in the FG, Trevor was a godawful writer, Chris is a godawful writer."

"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."

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