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ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#468076: Dec 2nd 2015 at 8:54:25 PM

It wasn't that Rennor was unapologetic.

That's not the right word.

He didn't understand why it was wrong, and that's what made things sour. In the beginning, anyway.

I imagine the reaction to it made him feel apologetic after a while.

edited 2nd Dec '15 8:54:56 PM by ramuf

ChrissieMcNapkins bruhonetta from the traphouse Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
bruhonetta
#468077: Dec 2nd 2015 at 8:56:02 PM

how does one not understand the ramifications of that

again, all this has probably been answered already but

it has been a while

edited 2nd Dec '15 8:56:28 PM by ChrissieMcNapkins

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.
ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#468078: Dec 2nd 2015 at 8:56:58 PM

It was for a friend, and he didn't mean it badly.

thespacephantom Jamais vu from the smallest church in Saint-Saëns Since: Oct, 2009
Jamais vu
#468079: Dec 2nd 2015 at 8:57:58 PM

couldn't really parse what he did

because it's so huge and massive

tho he could probably argue 'well i did it to save another universe, but since y'all stopped me it all was pointless'

(don't tell him clouds universe got destroyed anyways that'll spiral things irrevocably -makes a shushing noise-)

[up]yes

that was more real and immediate than some podunk alt timeline

edited 2nd Dec '15 8:58:23 PM by thespacephantom

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI
foxmccloud4387 Since: Mar, 2011
#468080: Dec 2nd 2015 at 8:59:50 PM

Was it a "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" deal?

One ravaged universe as payment to (attempt to) fix a frozen one.

thespacephantom Jamais vu from the smallest church in Saint-Saëns Since: Oct, 2009
Jamais vu
#468081: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:01:00 PM

yeah think of it like as a kiritsugu thing bsclly

only

maybe in inverse now that i think of it

a heaven's feel!shirou thing

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:01:17 PM by thespacephantom

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI
SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
Problem Child
#468082: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:01:42 PM

Rennor's thought process was "I'll only pick a universe where the Reapers win the war so nobody suffers".

Which kinda ignored all the billions of other galaxies in the universe.

Not to mention the fact that the Reaper cycles mean that even the milky way galaxy would never be without life.

How silly of him.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?
foxmccloud4387 Since: Mar, 2011
#468083: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:02:18 PM

An HF Shirou deal where he was in denial and claimed to be Mind of Steel.

ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#468084: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:02:29 PM

That kind of moral rationalization wasn't explicitly part of the thought process, I think.

Or rather, it was along the lines of "this one is unimportant and can be subordinated to an actually important one."

The way I take it, it didn't have clearly delineated moral reasoning behind it. It was more visceral and emotional-based than mathematical-morality-based.

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:02:53 PM by ramuf

thespacephantom Jamais vu from the smallest church in Saint-Saëns Since: Oct, 2009
Jamais vu
#468085: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:03:20 PM

ram is right

@fox: ye

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI
foxmccloud4387 Since: Mar, 2011
#468086: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:04:30 PM

I get that, but was he ever confronted with Mathematical Morality?

ChrissieMcNapkins bruhonetta from the traphouse Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
bruhonetta
#468087: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:05:15 PM

i

still didnt like it??

and i dont mean that in a "holy shit that sucks" kind of way

i mean more like "it just doesnt really work" kind of way if that makes any sense? well thinking of it now, not even in that kind of way

more like a "how do you even come back from that" kind of way

like iunno i just dont think rennor should be able to come back from that

lame i know but

yeah

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:06:19 PM by ChrissieMcNapkins

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.
ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#468088: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:06:48 PM

He was confronted with it in the sense that people said that "the numbers don't matter! Killing is killing, no matter how many die. Some death to prevent more death isn't justified on this scale."

But otherwise, no. Or at least, the mathematics of morality were only used against him.

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:07:07 PM by ramuf

thespacephantom Jamais vu from the smallest church in Saint-Saëns Since: Oct, 2009
Jamais vu
#468089: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:08:29 PM

chris that is fair

i feel the only reason i'd have to bring rennor back would be to tie up his character arc

and i'm not sure if that'd be a good reason to bring a character back if that's the only reason i'm doing it

UN JOUR JE SERAI DE RETOUR PRÈS DE TOI
eldritchseer all the loose ends from Cocytus Since: Mar, 2019
all the loose ends
#468090: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:09:45 PM

i feel

the lack of a good, concrete ending

is, itself, an ending

Bcom Since: Jun, 2014
#468091: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:10:04 PM

You know I really like these discussions, the talk of character morality is really pretty interesting

Also agreeing with seer, sometimes the best endings are open ended.

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:10:49 PM by Bcom

ChrissieMcNapkins bruhonetta from the traphouse Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
bruhonetta
#468092: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:14:12 PM

rennor never getting closure for the whole thing is kinda fitting

i like

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.
ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#468093: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:17:44 PM

On the subject of characters committing atrocities.

I think the only way (for me, personally) to satisfyingly end it is with no ending. When something horrendous like that has happened, I don't think there's ever a way to fully resolve it.

They're defining sorts of moments, and to "get over them" isn't all that realistic. Watershed moments stick with people, whether they're bad or good or neutral or what-have-you. Everyone has them. I still remember leaving my elementary school for a middle school in a different district, for instance. Unimportant, relatively speaking, but it's a big deal at the time. And in that same vein, sacrificing a universe may be cosmically insignificant, but it was important in the moment.

It's an approach that I think is fundamentally the only good way to deal with it. In some ways, all subsequent actions are, in part, a response to whatever happened.

In the case of Rennor, he's chosen to deal with it by going out and trying to do some good in the world. He's helping fight against the Combine, a suitably totally evil foe for that sort of enemy. There's only good karma to be had there, is another way of saying it.

It's the approach I've taken with Tallis. Rennor will never atone fully for what he did, and neither will Tallis. As a result, everything they do is in some sense part of an eternal, never-ending atonement that will continue until they die or experience some other big watershed moment.

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:19:14 PM by ramuf

SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
Problem Child
#468094: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:31:01 PM

My main issue is that I just still can't wrap my head around Rennor doing it. And I get that it was this irrational thing that he did, and the context the decision was made in. I just have trouble associating Rennor with the outcome.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?
ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#468095: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:39:12 PM

He was put in an extraordinary circumstance, and the options before him were as outlandish as they were repugnant. Push hard enough, and one of those options have to be chosen.

No, it's not something you typically associate with Rennor, the endlessly awkward people-pleaser. But he was pushed, and something gave way. This is the aftermath of that.

What could he have done? There weren't any good options, and in that moment, he had to come to the realization that his mental set didn't apply here. His normal method of solving problems (which would be, in all likelihood, intense vacillation until everyone was somewhat satisfied) was entirely inapplicable. No action he could have taken would have fit the "normal" limits of his character. There was no Rennor-esque way to deal with it, because this wasn't a Rennor-esque problem to begin with.

It's odd, yes, but given the unbelievably extraordinary nature of it, the results have no choice but to match the thing that gave rise to them. Anything else wouldn't have fit.

Azure Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist from The World Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist
#468096: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:42:01 PM

I think, if Rennor came back that A) Its Space's choice

And B) It it'd be the same sort of relationship that Fen has with FG!Cloud. At this point they know eachother to be capable of some really fucked up stupid shit, but at the end of the day they care about each other more than they do all the faceless people that they hurt.

PM box is Closed, Indefinitely Friend Code: 3368-4181-6850
ChrissieMcNapkins bruhonetta from the traphouse Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
bruhonetta
#468097: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:43:31 PM

so

it doesnt matter how many people one of them kills

they care about the other so it's okay?

edited 2nd Dec '15 9:43:41 PM by ChrissieMcNapkins

I live in a constant state of fear and misery.
SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
Problem Child
#468098: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:44:22 PM

People are weird like that.

Coras fell in god-damn love with Cloud, in spite of all the shitty stuff he's done and had to do.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?
ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#468099: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:45:26 PM

I'm not sure that's a very precise summation of what he actually meant.

No one's under any illusions that that'd be okay, but caring for each other includes a willingness to try and work past it, which isn't a tacit admission of its correctness.

WonderSquid Since: May, 2012
#468100: Dec 2nd 2015 at 9:48:16 PM

napkins i swear if you start doing the problematic fave thing


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