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Bcom Since: Jun, 2014
#448876: Sep 12th 2015 at 9:58:09 PM

(@Norm) ah alright. sounded like you were leaning a bit much on the GM's side but that's my mistake.

cause really both parties are needed, without the GM there's no plot. without players, who will play the plot?

WonderSquid Since: May, 2012
#448877: Sep 12th 2015 at 9:58:19 PM

i mean holy shit, you guys even liked hawthorne, i think, but we barely even managed to get it into the polls before the moral outcries for us to restructure everything started

but we said "shut the fuck up we got this"

and you did

and we did

and it was good

@Imca: NDA?

oh wait nondisclosure

yeah but i didn't want to tempt metagaming

remember when pentigan did the thing where he just assumed he knew the endgame and the twists and kept trying to play "to his advantage" because of it? i'm describing this badly, but you know the thing

edited 12th Sep '15 10:01:15 PM by WonderSquid

SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
Problem Child
#448878: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:01:06 PM

In truth, Bcom, I really do think we should err somewhat on the side of the GM's judgement. They know what works, and what doesn't, and shouldn't have to bend over backwards unless they demonstrate substantial incompetence. Which, so far, only Strig has really done.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?
Bcom Since: Jun, 2014
#448879: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:02:28 PM

yeah, I guess I still am a bit paranoid because I've seen enough really really bad G Ms in my past that I tend to be more on the players side.

but then again the idea of sides probably isn't a smart one since everyone is supposed to be on the same team in the first place ._.;;

Imca (Veteran)
#448880: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:02:35 PM

Well, you could always use your better judgment then?

Because I am pretty sure most of us would not do that, and I know how painfull it is when some one does.

._.;

WonderSquid Since: May, 2012
#448881: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:03:19 PM

that's true i suppose

still, you know me

i love me some convoluted red herrings

and now i seriously need to sleep

try not to lynch anyone while i'm gone

edited 12th Sep '15 10:03:36 PM by WonderSquid

ThanatoSeraph ARE WA DARE DA from The Land Down Under Since: Feb, 2012
ARE WA DARE DA
#448882: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:03:42 PM

I think that idea is very important.

There shouldn't be "sides" at all really, and thinking in terms of such is dangerous.

SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
Problem Child
#448883: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:04:27 PM

No promises, Spaz. I didn't buy all this rope to make a tyre swing.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?
Azure Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist from The World Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Fist
#448884: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:05:00 PM

@Norm:While I do agree the GM should have the final say, I will say that the GM doesn't know everything about what's going on. I mean they certainly know what's happening with the plot and what might set that off the rails but following the structre set in the GM's head is not always guaranteed to be what's most fun.

The player however knows what's fun and what's not, they know how events are affecting them and their characters. So they aren't totally ignorant.

An example is the very plot we're on right now. If Duff and Riv had kept quiet about this problem, not saying they should have, everyone would have most likely said that they had a lot of fun with the plot. Why? Because its been consistently entertaining on all fronts even though Rivuff were scrambling behind the scenes.

PM box is Closed, Indefinitely Friend Code: 3368-4181-6850
Bcom Since: Jun, 2014
#448885: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:05:00 PM

you only bought enough to make one and a half unfortunately norm.

Imca (Veteran)
#448886: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:05:18 PM

edited 12th Sep '15 10:06:44 PM by Imca

Boxen whatever he can Since: Jan, 2013
whatever he can
#448887: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:05:50 PM

that's not funny

dead devotion
ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#448888: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:06:41 PM

So I've been gone for an hour doing Things of Great Importance can you summarize the decision for my lazy ass

No not really I read it.

But in terms of the GM/player thing.

I will say that there should be a dialogue.

Neither should be favored.

Democracy yo.

>revolutionary ideas yes

Boxen whatever he can Since: Jan, 2013
whatever he can
#448889: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:07:17 PM

communist Bernie type man...

dead devotion
Imca (Veteran)
#448890: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:07:19 PM

Ehh, your right, removed.

Any way, back on topic.

I have to agree with what Berry has to say, the GM is not omnipotent.

They also can not see how much some things bother players.

Like, they can tell they are upset, but not HOW upset.

edited 12th Sep '15 10:07:59 PM by Imca

Trip Since: Mar, 2012
#448891: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:09:19 PM

@Imca

Edit ninjad but I won't remove that reaction image because I like it

edited 12th Sep '15 10:09:57 PM by Trip

SR3NORMANDY Problem Child from N/A - In constant flux Since: Jul, 2012
Problem Child
#448892: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:12:00 PM

There should absolutely always be communication between GM and player.

A good GM will take all things into consideration.

A good player accepts final judgement of the GM.

Both the player and the GM need to work for that mutual trust. And that means occasionally letting a few gripes slide.

What if there’s no better word than just not saying anything?
ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#448893: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:12:58 PM

The stumbling block here is that it didn't happen as much as it should have.

But.

Hopefully that's changed.

ThanatoSeraph ARE WA DARE DA from The Land Down Under Since: Feb, 2012
ARE WA DARE DA
#448894: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:13:20 PM

@Imca: that's what you think

why do you think we try so hard to get into the gm position

@Jam: Yeah, players definitely shouldn't be disregarded or anything.

I guess I'll just echo the sentiment that it should be a dialogue, not one way or the other.

And the GM of course has The Final Say, which can lead to people thinking "I didn't vote for this" perhaps in the case of Imca.

I think one thing that perhaps has to be done is to make very clear the "rules" beforehand.

Of course to an extent that's impossible because we're not omniscient, we can't predict everything coming.

Basically, the player say comes, to an extent, from which plot players decide to vote for. Because of course the players themselves won't agree with each other over everything.

This then leads to once the GM is voted in, by and large What They Say Goes, because they were voted in, and we, in the end, do need one voice to settle disputes.

GM thus has a responsibility to make The Rules clear, otherwise people will go "wait what I didn't vote for this"

I think I kind of lost my point somewhere.

edited 12th Sep '15 10:14:08 PM by ThanatoSeraph

Trip Since: Mar, 2012
#448895: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:14:14 PM

now what to do with all that rope

Bcom Since: Jun, 2014
#448896: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:16:17 PM

This all pretty much goes back into the social contract.

but just to summarize everything I think I've read so far: "trust and communication is key"

edited 12th Sep '15 10:16:46 PM by Bcom

Imca (Veteran)
#448897: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:16:20 PM

@ Pyro: Its... what I know actually, both from personal experience here, and G Ming experience elsewhere.

Even if a problem is vocalized it is hard for either party to quantify.

I about left over the whole Hawthorn thing Spazz brought up, actually I think I did leave for like 2 weeks.

Yet it could have been prevented by a bit more communication.

Trust only goes so far.

ThanatoSeraph ARE WA DARE DA from The Land Down Under Since: Feb, 2012
ARE WA DARE DA
#448898: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:18:48 PM

I was having a joke, implying that we compete over gm position because it grants omnipotence.

ramuf Electric Heart from the Shining Throne Since: Jan, 2013
Electric Heart
#448899: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:19:10 PM

Bad experiences in the past don't translate to guaranteed future bad experiences.

All that's gotta go down is that people need to speak up when there's an issue.

On both sides. In this case, the gms having trouble working with too many dueds. Or it could be the players disliking something.

When we honestly try to fix things, stuff gets done.

It's getting to that point that's the tricky part.

edited 12th Sep '15 10:19:52 PM by ramuf

Imca (Veteran)
#448900: Sep 12th 2015 at 10:20:53 PM

[up] Which is kinda why were talking now no to prevent future ones?

[up][up] Sorry, I am tired, I missed that joke, and made a CHA level one earlier, I cant brain right now.


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