Gods are largely depicted as selfish jagoffs that screw with mortals' lives on a whim. You know, stuff like telling a faithful dude to sacrifice his only son, then saying, "just kidding!" when he's about to do it.
I kid, I kid.
But seriously, most pantheons depict their gods as fallable, with very human motives. Then you get into Lovecraftian stuff, where the gods are either completely indifferent to us, because we're basically microscopic insects to them, or actively hostile and trying to make you insane and kill you, maybe even in that order.
Cabin is trying to evoke the latter type of gods, but doesn't actually get explicit into whether that is actually the case.
The gods could all be evil. They could still all be evil and some of them might still not want to destroy the world ("The earth? That's where I keep all my stuff!" /The Tick). They might fight about it if they ever woke up.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary GygaxAh, Lovecraftian gods. The most pathetic of them all. Ancient alien beings who have no reason to exist whatsoever. Conquest would just be utterly POINTLESS to them. They have no purpose to exist. They exist just to make everything see and feel and think like them, which is batshit insane, but then what? Nothing. There's nothing left to do. I would imagine that Cthulu doesn't just dream, he's died at the bottom of the ocean from going insane himself when he realizes he'd have nothing to do after taking over the world or the galaxy or whatnot.
Also, evil is parasitic. In every single mythology, evil came after something screwy happened with good. Evil is good gone rotten, it's good spoiled. And in a way, this film is kinda insulting in that regard: does Joss think he and his crew are the ONLY people who are annoyed and angry and disgusted with how horror movies are?
...what. No. When did Joss imply that?
The gods were a metaphor. For one thing.
edited 18th Jun '12 6:14:57 PM by MrAHR
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...Joss and his crew aren't disgusted with horror movies. They were poking a bit of fun at the genre, that's all.
I'm getting the distinct impression that you're not a horror movie fan. Or really a horror fan in general. That's fine, I'm not either, but there are much better movies to attack in this one. And your points are all over the map — I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what your problem is with the movie.
My biggest problem is that this is nothing new. What he's done has been done again and again. And he wants to have it both ways. Again, I bring up the "satire" thing. If he had played this STRICTLY straightforward the same way "I'm Too Sexy" played the role of "catwalk model" straightforward, the Satire would have worked. But the film itself is, like my comments, "all over the place". And it just comes off as stupid. Why in the holy living hell do ancient evil gods care about specific stereotypes? And if they need specific KINDS of people, why not, y'know, abduct these people in secret instead of forcing these changes on them? Why have that dumb office humor, Joss? Are you trying to show that the villains are people too, with their own lives? That's nice and all, but you undercut your point by having them making racist jokes and cracking wise as people are getting eaten alive by zombies.
"It just raises too many questions".
The point of the movie was to show a universe where horror movies could feasibly exist. I already said this.
Read my stories!They find it entertaining. One could almost compare them to, I dunno, moviegoers or something.
How many people do you know who think "Let's split up, gang!" is a sound strategy? Even the dumbest member of the group realized what a horribly bad idea that was. They force them into certain archetypes because one-dimensional people don't exist naturally.
The idea of the film isn't that the Ancient Ones saw horror movies and said "make that happen in Real Life"; it's that the Ancient Ones expressed what they wanted to see happen, and all those elements of the ritual became the tropes of horror movies.
While these tropes have been made fun of before, I don't think I've seen them made fun of in this way before.
...the fuck are you talking about? Lovecraftian gods have two main traits: they are utterly alien (as in, their minds work in a way completely and totally foreign to our own), and they make us seem like insects by comparison. Possibly less. An exchange from Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood comes to mind: "This guy thinks all humans are fools." "When you crush an insect, do you stop to think it a fool?" I have know idea what the hell you're talking about, but it's certainly not Cosmic Horror.
Another way to explain: Humans Are Cthulhu. Basically, imagine what humans must look like to small animals. They don't have the kinds of brains we have. They don't understand why we act the way we do. To them we are these strange creatures who demolish their world, are completely incomprehensible, etc. Well, in a Lovecraftian god scenario, we are the small animals, and those gods are the humans.
Seriously? Showing people who are so completely jaded that they don't even bat an eye at the sight of people being horribly dismembered undercuts his point? Do you even understand what horror movies are supposed to do? And what people who watch lots of horror movies are generally like with them?
edited 19th Jun '12 5:44:12 AM by LizardBite
"Another way to explain: Humans Are Cthulhu. Basically, imagine what humans must look like to small animals. They don't have the kinds of brains we have. They don't understand why we act the way we do. To them we are these strange creatures who demolish their world, are completely incomprehensible, etc. Well, in a Lovecraftian god scenario, we are the small animals, and those gods are the humans. "
What kinda sicko tortures a small animal? Also, I don't know what childhood YOU had, but I wasn't the type who said "Ooh, ants, I'm gonna step on them all". Hell, even Stephen King himself said "What kinda kid fries ants with a microscope, that'd just be wrong". All you're doing is describing little kids with squid heads, and who have just as good a grip on morality as a tree frog.
That STILL doesn't work. Lovecraftian gods are amoral. Humans, in contrast, are highly emotional and moral creatures. In fact, that's kinda the whole premise of the protagonists at the end, that they felt NOBODY should have to be sacrificed at all just for some old god's jollies. But again, this goes back to the "have your cake and eat it too" approach Joss went for. And again, I feel insulted. The "Old Gods" are supposed to represent the mainstream movie audience. They're meant to represent US, the people who have said yes to "torture porn" esque movies like Hostel and Saw and the like, am I right?
But if that IS true, I have to ask...doesn't this make Joss come off as elitist? Does he HONESTLY think that NOBODY else besides him and his friends have a problem with the way the horror genre's become? Did he miss all those people who complained again and again that films like the Human Centipede have no right to exist? Did he somehow forget that so many have railed against the reboots of the old classics because they're overly gory and rely on too many jump scares? And even then, isn't he kind of hypocritical to be complaining about how awful it is to deliberately set up scenarios which are no-win and always end so horribly and cruelly for the characters considering how a happy ending evidently killed his parents? Should the man who frequently ENJOYS stuffing his characters into terrifying situations and facing ridiculous odds only to screw them over in the end, either emotionally or physically, have the right to make a movie like this? This is the guy who got rid of all magic in the world at the end of the most recent big run of "Buffy" AND killed off Giles whilst demons were pouring out from portals into another dimension, that's standard horror movie schlock right there. Does he think he's being some new visionary? This is OFFENSIVE.
It's kinda amusing for me to watch a fly mash against a window again and again as it desperately tries to leave my home, not comprehending that there's an invisible barrier of glass blocking its way. The fly has so few human qualities that I can't identify with its plight, and I just find it funny to see it struggle.
To an elder god, watching humans fight for their survival is like that. Except with a bigger fatality rate.
Wut?
I mean, your argument is essentially (as far as I can understand it): "Joss Whedon is criticising the public for having low standards when it comes to horror movies. No one should criticise the public for anything, unless 100% of everyone everywhere is applicable to the criticism. Only when absolutely everyone is to blame, can you criticise the public."
edited 19th Jun '12 7:39:32 AM by Kerrah
"Lovecraftian gods are amoral."
Not really, do you have a huge moral dilemma about killing a cockroach? No, you stomp the fucker then go get spray to kill the rest. Lovecraft's gods were so vastly ahead of us that we don't even matter on their scale.
"Humans, in contrast, are highly emotional and moral creatures"
You've clearly never been to Jersey...
"They're meant to represent US, the people who have said yes to "torture porn" esque movies like Hostel and Saw and the like, am I right?"
Yeah, that's very much the point.
"doesn't this make Joss come off as elitist?"
No? Maybe? I don't understand your point here.
"Does he HONESTLY think that NOBODY else besides him and his friends have a problem with the way the horror genre's become?"
Eh?
"Should the man who frequently ENJOYS stuffing his characters into terrifying situations and facing ridiculous odds only to screw them over in the end, either emotionally or physically, have the right to make a movie like this?"
T.V. does not equal films. You're comparing apples and oranges mate.
Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?The main piece of criticism in the movie, I felt, was not at horror fans (after all, the Ancient Ones (who represent them) are kept almost entirely off-screen), but at the makers of horror films (as represented by the control room personnel). The way the control room people strictly follow a ritual, too afraid of the Ancient Ones to try changing it, and caring little-if-at-all for their victims, mirrors the way many horror filmmakers strictly follow a formula, too afraid of the audience not liking them to try changing it, and caring little-if-at-all for their characters.
Whedon and Goddard don't have a problem with killing characters; their filmographies attest to that. It's why and how you kill characters that seems to be an issue for them.
I never understood some people's hate-on for Joss Whedon. I mean, I know some people think he's the best evar because he was early in acknowledging fandom and gay folks and whatnot, and other people dislike that sort of hero worship, but it seems like a long way to go to just dump on one guy who struggled for a long time to make it in show business without compromising his personal standards too much.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary GygaxWell, I hate him. A lot.
But that's more of because I see him as an abusive boyfriend.
—shakes fist at Whedon—
He causes me much pain T.T
edited 19th Jun '12 9:07:14 AM by MrAHR
Read my stories!Wait a minute. I just thought of something. Questions that aren't answered.
1. The Old Gods are different in EVERY big country, right? There's a bunch of them all over the world, therefore, to Joss, all of these represent different horror movie audiences, and there's something wrong with ALL of them. Never mind the fact that a lot of people HATE torture porn esque movies, it's really only in America that the sub-genre's remotely popular, and even THAT'S a stretch. He IS aware that Japanese horror movies are quite different from, say, French horror movies or German horror movies? You can't just slap the label of "bad" on all of them. A lot of countries won't even SHOW really gratuitously violent films like Cannibal Holocaust. Now if he'd made it so the old gods ONLY operated out of America, that mighta worked, but noooo! He HAD to throw in others in other countries so he could make the racist jokes.
2. The Old Gods just need the blood of very specific archtypes, right? First of all, how exactly is there any kind of chemical or magical dookickey that can make somebody act like a stupid stereotype? Even if that isn't important, why don't they just track down people who ALREADY fit the archtype and stick them in the cabin? They did something similar in "The Cube" movie, remember? Why not just get them and then fill them fulla holes and let the blood seep down to the Old Ones?
3.HOW do these people know what the Old Ones want? Did these giant evil f—ks give them a couple stone tablets that say "We want you to do EXACTLY this to make people into JUST this exact kind of person"? Did they send emails to these people or call their cell phones? If nobody ever sees these things, how do they even know what they really want or if they're even still alive? Are there cameras monitoring the Old Ones?
4. Where in the HECK did the Zombies, the Mer-thing, the unicorn, ALL of those creatures come from? Seriously! Did the Old Ones just make them? Were they genetically engineered? If you can make monsters of your own, why not make some to fight the Old Ones? Or launch a nuke up their ass? Explain, movie, explain!
And for those of you who will try to rush to this stupid movie's defense, I say this. You should not HAVE to. A movie should be perfectly capable of, within the context of its own story, providing an explanation for seeming plot holes. Take Star Trek Generations's first movie which crossed over with the original series, where Kirk meets Picard. The main villain wants to hijack a whole planet to make sure he's in the path of a special type of spacial energy that will make him young. Kirk LOGICALLY asks "why doesn't he just fly a ship into the storm"? And guess what? They provide an answer, Data explains that every ship that's come in contact with the anomaly explodes!
THERE! That is what a film needs to do! If there's something that doesn't make sense in a film that's presented to the audience, there should be an in-film explanation for it! Is that really so much to ask?
Furthermore, I direct you Suspension of Disbelief and other tropes. It's a movie that's not MEANT to be scientifically accurate. This movie is not meant to be based on an original plot, or from an original universe.
Those complaints could be "technically" true, but they are missing the point of the movie, in the same way questioning how dragons can exist in Harry Potter is missing the point of the story.
edited 5th Jul '12 4:49:45 PM by MrAHR
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Wait, if there's evil gods, doesn't that follow there are thus good gods too?