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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4376: Jan 12th 2025 at 7:18:46 AM

I would make the argument that within the story's framework, suspension of disbelief applies and you aren't supposed to question nor is there a question of how the Firefly's plan can succeed. In order for the moral dilemna to be engaging it 100% has to ve possible (creating a cure) or otherwise the situation is unimportant.

The game never indicates the plan couldn't have worked, but we keep going outside the narrative and claiming it wouldn't have and using that as justification for Joel - except Joel never asks or cares about that.

It's like watching a crime/heist movie and criticizing the plot because, realistically, those criminals will never get away with or be able to keep or trust each other to hold onto the money.

I mean, I get that. I believe Word of God has said that yes, the operation would have worked and they'd have been able to extract Ellie's spores to make a vaccine, or cure, or whatever the exact scientific term is.

My issue is that there were still a lot of obstacles to distributing it. Just having the cure doesn't mean much if you can't get it to people, or people find out and decide they aren't going to wait for you to decide if you should have it or not.

And again....once Ellie is dead, that's it. She was lightning in a bottle and they won't have access to her once they go through with the operation. So if anything goes wrong afterwards and they lose that cure that they sacrificed her to make....

One Strip! One Strip!
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#4377: Jan 12th 2025 at 9:02:42 AM

[up] I'm 99% sure Word of God has never said anything about it, it's just people saying it did to win arguments.

I mean, in a world as shitty as the last of us, the fact that he traveled across the country on foot to deliver Ellie and they plan to stiff him is a Moral Event Horizon.

Not just stiff him. Remember they stole all the stuff he walked in with too, as the guard escorting him at gunpoint yells at him to keep walking after Joel stops right after walking past his backpack and guns.

The thing that keeps Jerry from being sympathetic to me is thay he does not even consider that Joel might have a father and daughter relationship with Ellie, and that his motivation is that they need the cure to justify everything they have done.

What seals the deal for me on him being totally unsympathetic is Abby establishes he was the one in charge of Salt Lake at the end of the game, as identifying him as the leader was how she proves she was really a Firefly. Meaning he was the one in charge when the other Fireflies told Marlene to kill Joel. Feels extremely telling that the second game just ignores that at absolute best he had such poor control over his men that they were going to kill people behind at his back, or either approved or gave the order himself.

Edited by doineedaname on Jan 12th 2025 at 12:03:37 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4378: Jan 12th 2025 at 9:05:20 AM

Druckman has, indeed, said that the vaccine would have been possible to create from Ellie. He went further to state the fact that the man Joel killed is probably the only mycologist and surgeon (already a rare combination) in the world who could have done the thing. Which is why the Fireflies have just given up on the whole thing.

The thing is that humanity is already adapting to the world and the bigger issues are not the fungi by 2 anyway. It would certainly have been USEFUL to have the vaccine but it's not a "humanity will go extinct without it."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 12th 2025 at 9:05:46 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#4379: Jan 12th 2025 at 9:13:00 AM

Unless the fungus mutates.

Just Makima.
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#4380: Jan 12th 2025 at 9:17:18 AM

[up][up] Do you have a source on him saying it would actually work vs its theoretically possible? Because Jerry wasn't fully trained as either. He got his Bachelor's in 2007 and the outbreak was only 6 years later. At best he would be mid residency still when the outbreak happened.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4381: Jan 12th 2025 at 9:34:57 AM

Unless the fungus mutates.

In that case, there's nothing really to be done either way. The vaccine would be useless.

Or maybe humans will develop a symbiotic relationship with it.

And Druckman had a Tweet confirming it. Sadly, he's no longer on X for SOME reason.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 12th 2025 at 9:39:22 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4382: Jan 12th 2025 at 10:44:02 AM

Yeah. I recall a video where the person said that there was Word of God that yeah, the vaccine was 100% plausible. So there's no debating that. I think that the Vaccine has to work in order for the tragedy to be truly cemented.

This makes Joel's choice worse. He knew that he was doing huge damage to Humanity's chances by doing what he did, and he didn't care.

I still argue that there were other issues after creating the vaccine that should have made killing Ellie risky, even if it seemed necessary.

As it stands, the only other way to create the same symbiotic relationship Ellie has is to re-create the circumstances that lead to her being impossible to infect in the first place, and there's an endless number of issues, both moral and practical, with that.

One Strip! One Strip!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#4383: Jan 12th 2025 at 10:46:09 AM

What IMO is a more interesting question: did Joel love Ellie as her own person, or just as a Replacement Goldfish for Sarah?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4384: Jan 12th 2025 at 10:48:30 AM

Ooof.

That's....hard to answer.

Would saying a little from Column A and a little from Column B be a cop-out?

One Strip! One Strip!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4385: Jan 12th 2025 at 10:53:47 AM

Does there truly have to be a difference?

There are parents who try to have another child after losing the first, and that feeling of loss may never go away despite loving the second child as their own person. To use a less extreme example, parents might be cautious to not repest any mistakes they feel they made with their first child, maybe be stricter with the younger sibling.

I think it's both with Joel.

  • He sees her as a Replacement Goldfish, acknowledges he would do exactly what he did all over again given the choice. He's definitely still projecting his desperation to have a familial bond.
  • We see in Part 2 this clashes with Ellie maturing into an adult, and I think Joel realizes/accepts this before the end - he listens to her wishes, accepts her relationship with Dina, and doesn't try to force the relationship to heal.

[nja]'d.

He definitely imprints on her, but I think you see that in almost any found family situation - another father/daughter one like Frank Castle and Amy in the second season of the Punisher:

Girl on the right is totally a metaphor for how Frank would interact with his daughter if he'd had the chance to see her grow up. He obviously really cares for her but the "Amy is what his daughter would likely be" feeling is there in every scene they have together.

Edited by FOFD on Jan 12th 2025 at 4:50:07 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4386: Jan 12th 2025 at 10:56:27 AM

What IMO is a more interesting question: did Joel love Ellie as her own person, or just as a Replacement Goldfish for Sarah?

I mean, Joel attempts to drive Ellie away and says she's not his daughter because he doesn't want that to happen. He falls for her as his daughter because she nurses him back to health.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#4387: Jan 12th 2025 at 11:22:38 AM

[up][up]Or Father Nier and Yonah. It's funny because Nier and Joel doom humanity .

Edited by Mizerous on Jan 12th 2025 at 2:29:48 PM

Just Makima.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#4388: Jan 12th 2025 at 1:15:59 PM

That's a stretch. Humanity is doing fine in TLOU, not having a vaccine is a problem but society was still enduring decades after the outbreak started. Nier literally doomed by killing the only person who could restore humans to their bodies.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4389: Jan 12th 2025 at 1:30:51 PM

I mean, humanity is living, but all it takes is one single infected getting in and spreading it to others to screw things up.

All it takes is one malfunctioning Fedra scanner, or the infected gathering on mass in a place where humans can see them until it's too late to deal with them (something similar happened in the 2023 series, though it also could have been avoided if the leader had dropped her desire for revenge to actually deal with the problem), or some other scenario where caution either doesn't work, or isn't enough.

And every person infected is one less person helping humanity to survive and one more person who's either been added to the every growing army of infected, or is dead and can't do shit, which is still a loss for humans.

But people being immune to bites reduces that issue. They can still die, yes, but now at least they aren't adding to the infected numbers, and with the risk of bringing the infection back to their camps being reduced, we can avoid instances where you have to kill someone to save yourself, and preserve fellow humans as a resource.

It would help immensely to have a vaccine.

One Strip! One Strip!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4390: Jan 12th 2025 at 1:49:14 PM

I mean, humanity is living, but all it takes is one single infected getting in and spreading it to others to screw things up.

Ironically, since it doesn't grow on animals, it's a case of just waiting it out.

It would help immensely to have a vaccine.

Oh yes, it would. I feel like fans who didn't want it to work were trying to justify Joel's actions beyond just, "and it'd be murder."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 12th 2025 at 1:50:19 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#4391: Jan 12th 2025 at 1:51:20 PM

There are still plenty of cities and towns around the world, and what we see of Boston it's designed to be easy to quarantine so even if an infected gets in they can lock the city down easily enough and clear out the infected easily enough.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4392: Jan 12th 2025 at 1:56:36 PM

I thought it was deliberate that the plague is dying out in 2 but now humanity is back to being its own worst enemy.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4393: Jan 12th 2025 at 2:36:54 PM

Wait. The Plague is dying out in 2?

Well, everything I know about TLOU is more through this site and the TV series as I admit I've never played the game.

I just enjoy looking up Zombie stuff because I got a few ideas for a Zombie Apocalypse story of my own.

But I didn't know they were dying out. I assume that the issue of them getting stronger with age meant they weren't going anywhere.

One Strip! One Strip!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4394: Jan 12th 2025 at 2:37:44 PM

"Eh, I'd call that more an attempt to make Abby sympathetic, just like how the appearance of the hospital was completely changed from a rundown, moldy cesspit into something that looked functional, with the remakes ditching the old look for it. I think there was even an article posted in here about how the sickly kinda green color scheme it originally had has a lot of roots in horror movies and portrayals of mad scientists. "

I think is more a atempt to make firefly less of a gambit to show they have more under control that it show and ti make Joel murder cristal clear, as we see they are to many try to use tecnicallity of how much vacine can work in order to said his action were good.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4395: Jan 12th 2025 at 2:48:39 PM

Wait. The Plague is dying out in 2?

The plague is everywhere in 1 due to the cities being massive breeding grounds for it.

Ironically, the open natural communities are thriving and there's only a handful of places where you encounter the Cordyceps. Usually in dark and abandoned ruins.

I think is more a atempt to make firefly less of a gambit to show they have more under control that it show and ti make Joel murder cristal clear, as we see they are to many try to use tecnicallity of how much vacine can work in order to said his action were good.

If the show's origin for Ellie's immunity is canon, we also know why it's not possible to replicate her ability.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 12th 2025 at 2:50:11 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#4396: Jan 12th 2025 at 3:02:18 PM

Yeah. I recall a video where the person said that there was Word of God that yeah, the vaccine was 100% plausible

I tried searching and can't find anything where it's said "they actually would've suceeded" vs "it's possible they might've". With how heated discourse on the game got I'm sure if it was actually said it would be easy to find.

[up][up] I mean, that's basically the same thing. In order for Abby to be sympathetic the Fireflies have to not be so incompetent they make Cerberus look like they have a good track record with their experiments, or the aggressors who were planning on knifing Joel in the back and ended up with a case of Laser-Guided Karma.

[up][up][up] Enough people have died that it's not really going to massively up its numbers. It can't infect the dead after all.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4397: Jan 12th 2025 at 4:49:27 PM

Yeah, I agree.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 12th 2025 at 4:49:49 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#4398: Jan 14th 2025 at 6:09:04 PM

I think it had something to do with how the game presents itself. It's not as though the writers are medical doctors, but it's clear that they were going for a somewhat gray situation with the Fireflies, but they notched it up in execution.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Robotnik Since: Aug, 2011
#4399: Jan 15th 2025 at 3:11:19 PM

As others have said, I don't hate TLOU2 in concept; it's the execution that drags it down.

1. It strains credibility that any Fireflies exist after the events of the first game. Joel killed their most important personnel and took away their ace in the hole after they'd already been reduced to operating out of a dingy hospital (which the sequel conveniently retconned) with a skeleton crew.

2. On that note, why does humanity seem to be in a much stronger position in the sequel, and not dangerously close to extinction like it was in the first game? The infected barely seem to be an issue in Part II, and that makes it look like no vaccine was even necessary in the first place. Joel's actions had no impact on anything other than his intimate relationships.

3. Abby's revenge story didn't have to be personal. If she's affiliated with the Fireflies in some way, then it would be more logical for her to kill Joel for dooming humanity, then follow that up by kidnapping Ellie and dragging her off to wherever the Firefly remnant's new lab is so they can finish the job of extracting a vaccine.

But I could forgive every single one of those issues if they'd just given Abby the sort of backstory they were apparently running with in development before they changed things up for no reason.

4. Instead of rehashing the Firefly plotline at all (which Joel had decisively wrapped up), try something new; dig into Joel's distant past by showing us how he killed Abby's family during his hunting days with Tommy. The first game hints that he's killed civilians before, but it never shows him doing it.

If you want the audience to be on Abby's side, show that she has the moral high ground instead of just telling us that she does. If her family weren't just "people," but innocent people, good people, then Abby's utter ruthlessness and the sheer, prolonged brutality of Joel's death makes so much more sense.

Edited by Robotnik on Jan 15th 2025 at 5:12:33 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4400: Jan 15th 2025 at 4:03:50 PM

I mean the Fireflies are a massive cross-country terrorist organization and insurgency. If they're in Boston AND Salt Lake City, I'm confused why they would have been wiped out in the first place.

Next, humanity dying out was something that was contradicted directly by Joel's brother and his community. It seemed like the cities are actually the big problem as massive breeding grounds for cordyceps when, in fact, open air and sunlight fucks with them.

I think people really have way too much of a weird reaction for 'dingy hospital' when the Fireflies weren't using the entire thing.

If you want the audience to be on Abby's side, show that she has the moral high ground instead of just telling us that she does. If her family weren't just "people," but innocent people, good people, then Abby's utter ruthlessness and the sheer, prolonged brutality of Joel's death makes so much more sense.

The game absolutely doesn't want us to be on Abby's side. The whole lesson is the incredibly heavy-handed, "Vengeance is self-destructive." Abby kills Joel, yes, but all it does it get all of her friends killed. The problem is the Cycle of Revenge thing is badly handled here and you have to wonder if a better game would have been all Abby and then have Joel be the Final Boss that she can spare or not.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 15th 2025 at 4:06:39 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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