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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#4276: Mar 29th 2023 at 4:33:18 PM

I notice that a lot of people felt that Joel was justified in killing the fireflies. I can see where they are coming from but I do not know if it is that simple.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#4277: Mar 29th 2023 at 4:41:14 PM

They were going to kill Ellie though, so it's a very gray area, which is fitting for this franchise.

The legend has returned.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#4278: Mar 29th 2023 at 6:42:07 PM

Probably because is very personal and emotional, its draw not for conclusion and logic but most on gut feeling.

"if people want to kill your son for the world, would you allow it?" and it ask A LOT for Joel, a men who lost everything to the world and who deep down, he kinda want then to disapear and wont shear a single tear.

So its a complex question

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4279: Apr 5th 2023 at 9:53:58 AM

I still would've ended Part 2 with Ellie being put in a similar position.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4280: Apr 5th 2023 at 10:10:13 AM

So its a complex question

Depends on the person.

For Joel, it's not complex at all.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#4281: Apr 5th 2023 at 10:18:53 AM

[up] It's especially simple since it's being asked in relation to the hugely incompetent Fireflies.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#4282: May 26th 2023 at 12:06:25 PM

Part 2 mulitplayer delayed.

Turns out it was in response to a Bloomberg report about cutbacks on the team.

Edited by tclittle on May 26th 2023 at 2:25:07 PM

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#4283: May 26th 2023 at 5:49:33 PM

I honestly forgot they were intending to make it.

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#4284: May 26th 2023 at 6:37:41 PM

Same, and after three years I'd probably not bother playing it, unless it turns out to be suprisingly good.

I didn't even play Part I, though that's partly because I still own the Remastered edition.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#4285: Jun 23rd 2023 at 6:59:44 PM

Random thought, and I hope I'm not kicking the hornet's nest with this: do we know how TLOU players outside the US feel about the Ellie's life versus vaccine dilemma? The American fandom seems pretty overwhelmingly pro-Joel, to the point that "Joel was wrong, but I'd still do what he did" is a fairly common opinion I've seen, so I've been curious as to how the reception might be different in more communitarian countries like Japan.

Anyone have any ideas?

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4286: Jun 24th 2023 at 4:55:10 AM

I mean, any assessment we could make would be formed off of our pretentious observations of maybe 100 to 500 people we interact or observed on Twitter, Reddit, or here, and wouldn't come anywhere close to an objective or even accurate assessment of the literal millions of units this game has sold, aka the actual fanbase.

I did a quick google search to prove myself wrong and it lead me right to Reddit.

You'd be more honestly served finding someone who lives in Japan who plays video games and asking their general take on it. Any assessment we could have would be logistically and statistically flawed. Unless there's some reputable "video game international vibe check" website that gathers general public opinions of video games in different hemispheres.

Edited by FOFD on Jun 24th 2023 at 7:57:01 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4287: Jun 24th 2023 at 5:17:34 AM

Its apparently based on age not nationality. European, American, and Japanese all have roughly the same demographic.

People without kids and teenage fans believe Joel made a horrible error.

People with kids are almost 100% Team Joel.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 24th 2023 at 5:18:12 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#4288: Jun 24th 2023 at 7:56:43 AM

Thanks for the info! I've been thinking about this because I learned a polling company ran a question based on the final dilemma of TLOU (without explicitly naming the game or any characters) and Team Joel was overwhelmingly favored. But response was restricted to the US, which got me wondering how fans and people in general in other countries would answer.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#4289: Jun 24th 2023 at 9:25:07 AM

That is a good point. Unless someone can link a reliable source, we will probably never know what happens in other countries.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#4290: Jun 24th 2023 at 9:30:59 AM

I’m kinda in the middle and think that Joel saving Ellie and massacring the Fireflies was him being Right for the Wrong Reasons since there was no way in hell they would’ve succeeded in making a vaccine and even if they did, it would make things worse since I’m pretty sure all of the factions of survivors would go to war over it. However Joel didn’t save Ellie because they had no chance of succeeding but rather so he didn’t lose Ellie.

Once Upon A Time.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4291: Jun 24th 2023 at 3:31:48 PM

My only deviance from that is I think Artistic License – Biology is in effect. We can't say there waz no chance at a vaccine. For all intents and purposes the narrative says there was a possibility and the actual standards by which that would be possible are never called into doubt.

Tldr - Nobody in the games ever pointed to the Fireflies lacking the equipment or ability to make a vaccine. If you put real world standards to that then the story's emotional third act becomes a Nonsense Plot.

If they revealed in Part 2 the Fireflies never had a snowball's chance in hell of making a vaccine that'd put Joel entirely in the right which isn't what I think the writers intended.

Edited by FOFD on Jun 24th 2023 at 6:33:53 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4292: Jun 24th 2023 at 3:38:45 PM

I mean, Joel thinks it will work. The Fireflies are comfortable sacrificing Ellie for the 1/10 chance it will work.

The man doing the surgery is also the only guy left in the world who probably can make the vaccine (for lack of a better term of what seems to be, "harvesting benign brain fungus via big needle and growing it to put in other people")

But I'm comfortable being, "guy who doesn't murder kids to save the world."

Edit:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/03/14/the-last-of-us-restarts-the-great-was-joel-right-debate/?sh=758254075562

"Everyone seems to have a different take on the situation, and it turns out your own view may be informed by your real life circumstances. On The Last of Us’s post-episode podcast, Neil Druckmann revealed that in early testing, most players were split about the final decision and what they would do if actually given the choice to potentially save the world or just save Ellie. Except for one group. Parents, Druckmann said, were 100% in Joel’s camp. No exceptions."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 24th 2023 at 3:43:14 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4293: Jun 24th 2023 at 4:22:24 PM

Yeah. No parent would sacrifice their child. No true scotsmam be damned.

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#4294: Jun 24th 2023 at 7:13:54 PM

[up][up][up] The last part of the game already kinda was with what the collectibles and stuff say about how Ellie's blood samples can grow cordyceps and how the Fireflies wanted to murder Joel for reasons only to basically settle on a Uriah Gambit of tossing him out into Clicker infested territory without any supplies.

As for what they intended, I would honestly bet on Druckmann having changed it between games with how the setup of the hospital is changed. I vaguely remember an article linked here talking with a visual designer or something on how everything about the hospital, from color to lightning, is designed to make it look like something out of a horror movie to subtly encourage you to be on Joel's side...which the second game and remake then completely ditch and redesign.

Edited by doineedaname on Jun 24th 2023 at 10:16:52 AM

TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#4295: Jun 24th 2023 at 8:52:55 PM

I remember how my favorite part of the second game was exploiting Artificial Stupidity to trick a conga line of human enemies into walking into mines placed in the same spot. If they make a part 3 please at least make the gameplay better since Part 2 went on way too long and got very repetitive by the end.

Once Upon A Time.
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#4296: Nov 17th 2023 at 4:37:23 PM

Part II Remaster for PS5 coming January 19th.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
dmysta3000 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4298: Nov 17th 2023 at 4:42:34 PM

They also confirmed that it’s a $10 upgrade if you already own the original version digitally

Edited by dmysta3000 on Nov 17th 2023 at 7:43:08 AM

GUNDAMU GUNDAMU
Chariot King of Anime Since: Jul, 2014
King of Anime
#4299: Nov 17th 2023 at 8:00:20 PM

The original TLOU got a remaster a year after its release. Part II's remaster is dropping over 3.5 years after release. Don't really think it's fair to act like this is a cash grab.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#4300: Nov 17th 2023 at 8:19:44 PM

Disappointing that ND is circling back to Part II, but at least they're adding new content to it. I hope they extend the upgrade offer to those with a physical copy of the game the same way CD Project Red did for Cyberpunk and Witcher 3.


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