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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1226: Aug 21st 2024 at 3:57:33 AM

Two different posts ranking the ten most prominent members of the Justice League and the Titans in terms of how often they are featured in those specific books.

Diana and Donna are number three and number one, respectively.

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#1227: Aug 21st 2024 at 4:24:26 AM

Donna's actually kinda surprising as someone not terribly versed in Titans outside the animated series.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1228: Aug 21st 2024 at 4:27:39 AM

I think Donna's only major representation was in the live-action Titans show.

Unfortunately due to the Wonder Woman rights issue it barred her from stuff like the TT cartoon and Young Justice.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1229: Aug 21st 2024 at 4:41:27 AM

She did have a few voiceless cameos in the former and appeared in season 3 of the latter.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#1230: Aug 21st 2024 at 4:53:52 AM

The only thing that surprises me on the Justice League list is Wonder Woman's prominence, because of that stretch where she lost her powers, quit the league and got replaced by Black Canary, then had to go through twelve "labors" before she could come back. Guess she really made up for lost time!

The Titan's list is a little more surprising. Aqualad and Flash being top ten makes sense, but being towards the bottom of the top ten, less so. Cassie Sandsmark edging past Superboy too, considering that stretch she spent as his arm candy was Titans specifically, rather than anything else she was appearing in. I'm guessing she just really hogged panel time during that stint as the pushy, Jerkass leader, and that stint where she was the token liability instead of Raven.

I have some opinions on the way things "should" be. Superman "should" be more prominent than Batman considering he's supposed to be DC's golden boy, even though we know he hasn't been since 1993. Raven "should" be less prominent than all the founders considering what a liability she is, but who can resist such easy drama? For the most part the way things are seems to line up with what I know.

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Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#1231: Aug 21st 2024 at 7:17:29 AM

How are Lilith Clay and Jarrod Jupiter faring recently? I know they had to rework Lilith's origin (again) since Theia became associated with Donna instead.

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#1232: Aug 21st 2024 at 7:24:25 AM

Lilith and Gnarrk appear as supporting members not on the team yet in World's Finest Teen Titans.

I think that's her most recent appearance, but that book takes place in the past.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1233: Aug 21st 2024 at 7:42:06 AM

Lilith is currently a supporting character in Leah Williams' Power Girl series.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#1234: Aug 21st 2024 at 8:21:21 AM

Something to bear in mind is that the early, 60's era Justice League often had Superman and Batman not appear or appear only in very minor roles - it was felt that, with each of them already headlining multiple titles, plus having their own teamup book World's Finest, they were in danger of overexposure. So Wondy got a leg up on them there at the start.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#1235: Aug 21st 2024 at 8:39:27 AM

I was gonna mention that, despite those early limitations, Batman and Superman took the top two spots anyway. XD

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Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#1236: Aug 21st 2024 at 10:38:01 AM

Martian Manhunter was used as a Superman analogue in those issues a lot of the time, and when Superman appeared more often, he stopped appearing as much. His powers were much less defined at that point, too.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1237: Aug 22nd 2024 at 12:47:53 PM

Issue #30 of Mark Waid's World's Finest did an interesting reinvention of a Golden Age Wonder Woman enemy.

Diana invites Superman, Batman and Robin to Themyscira to investigate the murder of an Amazon named Dyatrine. When they find no clues or suspect, Batman correctly deduces that no murder actually took place — Dyatrine is the false identity of Apate, the Greek goddess of trickery and brother of Dolos... aka the Duke of Deception. Yes, the Duke is a Greek god now. With everyone focused on solving a murder that never actually happened, Dolos is able to steal the Flame of Prometheus, which Ares kept on Themyscira during Prometheus's rebellion. With the Flame's power, Dolos and Apate become reality warpers.

The Trinity use the lasso to defeat the siblings and Robin arrives with reinforcements. Apate and Dolos are sent packing back to Tartarus. Hippolyta thanks the heroes for their help and they leave the island.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 22nd 2024 at 8:48:18 PM

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#1238: Aug 22nd 2024 at 3:16:14 PM

I had heard about that plot development, but I had no idea which book it was in. World's Finest, that explains why I missed it.

Raises the question of which gods Earl of Green and Count of Conquest are. Maybe opens the door for a Post Rebirth version of Lya.

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1240: Aug 25th 2024 at 10:18:36 AM

Legend of Wonder Woman (and 80s Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman) to be collected in DC's Finest collections.

Compelling Wonder Woman stories from the 1980s, long out of print, return in the latest volume of the fan-focused DC Finest series! DC Finest presents comprehensive collections of the most in-demand and celebrated periods in DC Comics history, spanning genres, characters, and eras!

In DC Finest: Wonder Woman: The Legend of Wonder Woman, readers can experience long out-of-print adventures starring the Amazon Warrior, taking place in the year before the game-changing Crisis on Infinite Earths event. In these tales, written by Dan Mishkin with art by luminaries including Don Heck, Diana faces signature foes including Circe, Cheetah, Dr. Cyber, and more! Plus, this collection includes The Legend of Wonder Woman by writer Kurt Busiek and artist Trina Robbins, presenting a then-contemporary 1980s take on the iconic hero filtered through a Golden Age aesthetic. This volume collects stories from Wonder Woman #306-329; DC Comics Presents #76; Blue Devil #10; The Legend of Wonder Woman #1-4.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#1241: Aug 27th 2024 at 9:56:01 PM

That's good news. There's worse things than 1980s Wonder Woman, and for all it's odd choices I enjoyed Legend of Wonder Woman(volume one). It at least got Atomia's personality right, and showed how the setting can be used, built on. And contrasting Paula with a newer villain, that was usually an easy sell for me.

Anyway, I just thought of an easy fix for the mess James Robinson made pushing New 52 content back into Rebirth after it was explicitly stated New 52 was all lies. 1)New 52 did happen exactly as presented on a different planet out there in the multiverse. 2) Diana and relevant party's memories were overwritten with these New 52 memories, which is why they were so convincing! They really did happen, just not to this Diana and associates. 3) Zeus's non answer about "A lie with some truth to it."? No, Zeus is not this Diana's father, but he is her godfather. When the goddess(and Hermes) granted Hippolyta's statue life they also made Hippolyta wait nine months like any expectant mother. During this time Hippolyta got anxious, started asking for favors to make sure the baby would have the best chances possible. Zeus, being the horn dog he is, had a price. That price resulted in Jason. 4) The Gargareans still exist, but (sigh)Thalion has it's own wards similar to Themyscira. Since the Rebirth wards on Themyscira were not to be relaxed under any circumstances until it was absolutely certain Ares wouldn't act up again, Thalion is in similar circumstances...take your pick. This is why Jason could not simply be sent to live among the Gargareans. 4)Rebirth Grail is the daughter of Rebirth Panthea, and Dawn of DC Panthea was behind Dawn of DC Amazons Attack, the off panel one that absolutely could not have gone the same way as the Pre Flashpoint version, just to get a head start to cleaning up Tom King's continuity blunders.(and don't bother explaining who Panthea even is. Just reprint 1970s Wonder Woman, if you haven't already, tell readers to look there and then just fill in the blanks of how she has to be updated for the Post Flashpoint setting themselves. It'll still be more explanation than we got)

I still got nothing for Diana and Yara Flor's suddenly stilted English, Kapatelis having nanobots again, the anti-life equation retcon, the deliberate non explanation of Giganta, the implicit mixing of Rebirth and New 52 Cheetahs, Trinity's existence in general, but maybe King will have sorted all that out himself before he's done. He can always just lasso of lies it away. And he's, DC's free to use my easy fixes(not that they will).

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1243: Sep 6th 2024 at 10:01:19 PM

Kelly Thompson confirms gods that don't get featured often in Wonder Woman will be present in Absolute Wonder Woman.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/screenshot_514.png

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1244: Sep 7th 2024 at 12:53:31 AM

Okay since I'm collecting all the compact books, I'm reading Wonder Woman Earth One, volume 1 done.

I can see this is considered one of Morrison's weaker works. It's kind of really rushed. Especially in her interactions with Steve and Etta. Steve barely talks to her, making their relationship entirely on him having gratitude to her for saving his life but she doesn't really know him as a person.

No villain in the first volume the antagonist is squarely Hippolyta and the Amazons. Which unfortunately Morrison takes the more violent depiction of the Amazon's to the point Hippolyta outright let's loose Medusa in man's world as well as a bunch of amazon warriors, nearly killing a bunch of people without remorse.

And there isn't really a plot. It spends a lot of time on Themiscyra, then Diana escapes to bring Steve to a hospital and they sorta just hang out there for a while, she gets into a confrontation with the military, saves Etta and builds a fast friendship with her, Steve has a convo with her after waking up and is ordered by the military to watch her in a hotel, and thats when the Amazons arrive them back to the island.

Where the climax is the trial thats been interspersed across the story as the framing as Hippolyta reveals that Diana was created from the merging of her eggs with Hercules' sperm originally inteded to be a weapon of man's world. Yadda, yadda, revelations abound, they hug it out tearfully, and it ends without any kind of fight.

Plus the constant posturing about man's world, how awful it is, and how superior Amazon society is gets annoying. Cause yes society is awful and sexist, but when you're repeating the same stuff over and over again you're like "Okay get to the point already, what are you going to do about it?" plus it kind of reduces Diana's character to just all about this where she complains a lot instead of being curious about the world.

Doesn't help that Diana is barely shown actually experiencing non-Amazon society. The majority of her experience of man's world is literally seeing sick people in a hospital wing and being furious that a male doctor is ordering people around during a medical emergency not comprehending how doctors and nurses work.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1245: Sep 7th 2024 at 5:47:55 AM

Morrison's Earth One comes across to me as written for shock value by exploiting the Golden Age Wonder Woman's reputation for camp and fanservice than telling a story or even exploring the ideas the book raises.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#1246: Sep 7th 2024 at 9:20:29 AM

Morrison's Earth One is a deconstruction of the Golden Age comic books that doesn't bother to reconstruct them. If reading already feels like a chore to you well... there is more action as it goes on. It might get better to you on that front, and Amazons do start making efforts to improve "Man's World" instead of just whining about it, but if you're looking for relations to improve that never really happens.

I wouldn't even care that much if DC hadn't canceled The Legend Of Wonder Woman volume 2. That was at least a "counter argument" to Morrison's deconstruction, but apparently someone at DC didn't appreciate it. If I were a journalist I'd put interviewing the people writing the character in general on my bucket list. I'd try to be as non biased as possible, even though I am heavily biased and opinionated. I'd ask the relevant question pertaining to what was done, why it was done, how we ended up here, and let their words speak for themselves.

Edited by IndirectActiveTransport on Sep 7th 2024 at 9:21:28 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1247: Sep 7th 2024 at 11:41:34 AM

[up][up] Finishing the rest of the book and yeah the concept of Amazon brainwashing is just incredibly disturbing even if we see it happen to Nazi's.

This particular bit after they brainwash Paula is pretty disturbing.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/1000015448.jpg

Ignoring that she's a Nazi they did put a brainwashing girdle on her that makes her peaceful and loving, and if she wants to serve someone they can find a mistress for her. Which by definition would make her a sex slave.

I don't like how Paula was handled. Because the whole loving submission thing is completely unchallenged, Paula's brainwashing. She only becomes an antagonist cause the Nazi brainwashing overpowers the Amazon brainwashing so they signal her to reveal Themyscira's location and murder Hippolyta.

What seemed like a fight between the Nazi and Diana ends very underwhelming and quickly as Diana immediately talks down a repentant Paula and she spends the rest of the book as a loving devoted ally. So yeah lets let the Nazi live on paradise I guess....

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#1248: Sep 7th 2024 at 11:47:52 AM

That happened in the original too, to my recollection.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1249: Sep 7th 2024 at 12:22:53 PM

One of those things that did not age well.

The most important part about bondage is trust. Every relationship has to be built on the ability to trust your partner and choose to let them do this to you because you are putting yourself at risk to be taken advantage of.

If you have to force someone into it then its not genuine, its not real bondage. This is like the antithesis of the Sunstone comic.

This is also the whole basis of the first Squadron Supreme comic where the central conflict was whether its right to brainwash criminals to be more compliant.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 7th 2024 at 12:23:41 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#1250: Sep 7th 2024 at 1:22:11 PM

The original version Hippolyte did not put Paula Von Gunther in a Venus Girdle. Some antagonists did while attempting to takeover Paradise Island, but Paula reformed on her own. Paula did tell her daughter, Gerta, that Gerta needed to go to Transformation Island, to learn how to behave herself, but Gerta went willingly, Gerta put on a Venus Girdle willingly. Every "prisoner" who willingly donned a Venus Girdle was also given a key to unlock and remove it whenever they wished. They were trusted to judge on their own when they had reformed, transformed enough to no longer need it. Even prisoners forced to wear Venus Girdles were not intended to be forced to wear them forever. The goal was reformative therapy, not slavery...at least not to head warden Mala. Not to Mala, who was responsible for the prisoners.

Queen Desira just used the Venus Girdles on everyone she found too problematic for her society, and the Amazons of Paradise Island were going to use them the same way after Desira gifted Wonder Woman with a Venus Girldes to "pacify" humanity with, but Mala, the jailer of Transformation/Reformation Island, told everyone to hit the brakes, to show restraint with their mind altering gifts. The Amazons listened to Mala, and never used them as extensively or indiscriminately as Desira, though Desira remained their ally.

In the Silver Age the Amazons only used the Venus Girdles once. After one prisoner uprising they were retired on Silver/Bronze Age Earth One entirely. On Earth Two their usage was more gradually reformed and cut back on, on a trial and error basis. But as said, Grant Morrison's Earth One is a deconstruction. A far older, richer, better educated, more technologically advanced culture made up of physically superior individuals who thought themselves morally superior would realistically treat the clearly inferior outsiders with far more disdain than the "splendid isolation" policy the Golden Age Earth Two Amazons adhered to. My only objection is ending the story that way. Just because a deconstruction proves more realistic doesn't mean it's better. If the deconstruction ends in a worse place, the logical step is to figure out how to more realistically, plausibly, believably end in a better place once it has been established the original path just would not work. Wonder Woman Earth One has no such reconstruction!

Edited by IndirectActiveTransport on Sep 7th 2024 at 1:34:52 AM

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