Yes, the Amazons of legend were probably based on Scythians
, the ancient inhabitants of the Steppes of Caucasus and Siberia. There was also a different group of Amazons, the Lybian Amazons mentioned by Diodorus Siculus (these were the Amazons, led by Myrina, who waged war against the Atlanteans) which I would associate with Bana-Mighdall.note
Diana herself is already a bit of a Shamanic (in the Siberian sense) figure, able to "ride the air currents" and talk to animals, as well as having some degree of healing powers whether technological (the Purple Healing Ray) or metaphysical. I'd say making her North Asian would make a lot of sense. There was even a version of Wonder Woman associated with the USSR already.
I never liked the Ancient Grome trappings of WW as it mainly goes into The Theme Park Version of hellenic myth and religion (reminder Ovid's versions were unflattering parodies and should not be taken as source, lol), especially in the modern era. That's not to say the Ancient Grome stuff shouldn't be entirely erased (Cassie Sandsmark can still be daughter of Zeus and so on, and I still support modern Greece playing a larger role especially considering most versions of Silver Swan hail from there) but let's just say I am tired of Diana fighting Jerkass Gods instead of, say, her actual Rogues Gallery. I wouldn't call myself a Hellenic Pagan as someone who's more of an agnostic, but I'd still like some more respect shown towards the theoi. (The same goes for Aq comics btw). Also, it makes much more sense for Atlanteans to be Greek (Minoan-Mycenaean era Greeks more specifically, as Plato's Atlantis is believed to be inspired by the fall of Thera
, as well as—my theory—Orphic tales about the Idaean Dactyls
), instead of the Amazons. And, well, I am tired of Aquaman and Wonder Woman getting constantly paired in comics and fanon content nowadays—they're not even in the same genre and Aq's Atlantis and WW's Themiscyra should have no contact whatsoever at all, and they should be able to stand on their own, but if you do think WW needs a DCU pair Hawkgirl is right there.
And that's not even touching into the mess that was Yara Flor and Joëlle Jones' portrayal of my country's culture and folklore—it should not even have Greek (or rather, "Greek") elements at all. That one really makes sad because, well. At least the art was pretty. (Couldn't miss Jones just have Yara, y'know, Brazilian instead of an USAmerican hailing from a city I've never heard of beforehand, no offense? Perhaps coming from the Southnote —since Jones herself admitted to watching "strange videos" which were actually about Southern culture—and rediscovering her Native heritage North of the country where the Amazon actually is, which would still have her as an outsider? That would've been an elegant explanation for the boiadeiras at least.) At least it was not as bad as Dan Watters having Yara speaking Spanish and not even knowing A Mula Sem-Cabeça is female, I guess. I know DC (or Marvel for that matter) does not have a good track record regarding my country's portrayal, but I'd expect something better from such a recent comic.
Edited by Allisterarch on Aug 17th 2024 at 10:51:12 AM
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)I don't mind the Ancient Grome trappings of Wonder Woman too much because The Amazons don't come from Scythian folklore or religion, or Siberian, or Turkish or anything else but Greek belief, and get placed elsewhere by Greeks who just assumed so and such was a good enough place for them.
Yeah, the Amazons worshiping the Scythian gods would make a lot more sense with, say, Wonder Woman's Sisterhood with fire, but lets be honest. The Amazons mated with Greek gods like Ares, with Greek heroes like Theseus, were manipulated by Greek goddesses like Hera, crushed by the champions of Greek goddesses Athena. They might have been called pants wearing, gibberish speaking, backwards living barbarians, but they were Greek figures through and through, and to paste them onto a preexisting culture with its own beliefs, traditions and fictions just because the Greek did is kind of disingenuous to those cultures. I'd still be open to it, if the way it's done is cool enough, but I don't see it as being inherently superior to the Ancient Grome approach. Preferably there would be some middle ground, as they aren't really Greek but they aren't really anyone the Greeks assumed them to be, and they're a lot closer to the Greeks than the Greeks wanted to admit...and DC is almost there half of the time anyway.
There are still Sadly Mythtaken aspects that bug me though. As mentioned, Hera being an opponent of the Amazons is totally in line with Greek mythology, but as long as we're being honest Zeus, Athena and Aphrodite should also be their enemies, while Ares should be their best friend, and as of DC Rebirth he kind of is, but still. I could see starting Wonder Woman over, with the prospects amazons are neither the direct creations of any goddesses/gods, nor do they get their powers from training practices that require oaths to any goddesses, as they did in the Golden Age of comic books. I could go with a largely tragic tribe of barbarians whose husbands, brothers and sons were annihilated in a cowardly unprovoked attack by a coalition of their enemies but whose women rose up and routed the bastards. Who periodically jamboree with their allies, the gargareans, and exchange any sons/daughters they may have had, making some more if need be, and largely operate on Blue-and-Orange Morality...but that would be something for like a parallel Wonder Woman running alongside DC's main continuity, or something to save for the next Flash of Two Worlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Flashpoint. The Wonder Woman comic book has enough unnecessary shakeups as is. I'd generally just try to work with and shape what's established already.
Buldogue's lawyer
All good points. I do agree a mixed approach would make sense, especially considering cultural exchange. I guess the trick would be finding the right balance between the stylistic Ancient Grome elements and historical Scythian/Siberian/Turkish influences, which would at least require the help of historians as well as classicists, and some sensitive reading/writing. It would be a good Alternate Universe at least.
I think we can all agree the "Amazons of the Amazon" are very much an example on what not to do, though. (I still chuckle at the name Esquecidas, as though it does mean "forgotten" it also means "forgetfuls", especially coloquially.)
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)The only time this was ever an issue worth complaining about was Brian Azzarello's run. Outside of that, Diana has tangled with non-mythological characters as often as mythological ones. Arguably more so the former in some cases, like the current run by Tom King.
I don't understand why Diana, an Amazon from Greek myth, dealing with other characters from Greek myth (or even other myths) is seen as a problem. Her non-mythological foes aren't anything you can't find in other rogues galleries consisting of metahumans, aliens, sorcerers and humans with special technology. I don't see anyone complaining about Thor or Hercules (both from Marvel) fighting enemies and dealing with characters rooted in their respective mythologies, both of which drive their stories far more than Diana, to the point their stories hardly acknowledge anything else. I think the last time Absorbing Man was relevant to a Thor story was when he got beat up by Jane when she was using Mjolnir. All in all, I think it's a good thing Diana has her own corner of the DC universe all too herself that can't be easily poached by other heroes.
There is something to be said about the Wonder Woman comics using a dumbed down version of the myths but that's an issue of the writer's skill and knowledge, not a problem inherent in the concept. Granted, these myths are as consistent as DC's continuity these days, and I'd say there have been some pretty good takes on them. I.E. Rucka's depiction of Ares in a more grey light or Historia's depiction of the Amazons' origins.
As for Yara...yeah, more than enough internet ink has been spilled on how DC dropped the ball with that character. No disagreements there.
I do want to point out though Thor and Hercules are adaptations of the original myth characters. Myths are obviously the core of their stories. Diana, however, was very much William Moulton Marston's OC. She's named after the Roman Goddess Diana, but she's not based on any preexisting character. Although Diana's mother is an adaptation of Hyppolita, Marston's Themiscyra was not meant to be accurate to the myths either—it was meant to be a statement, an utopia based on his political beliefs, more of an allegory than anything else, a Fable, if you will. And her first Rogues also followed the pattern of being allegories or Fables, such as the misogynistic spacefaring Sangtee Empire in the Silver Age in direct opposition to the utopian Themiscyra. Even Perez' Bana-Mighdall could be seen as allegorical, a Dark Mirror for Themiscyra. Beyond allegories such as Ares representing the folly of Men, Classical Myth-inspired Heroic Fantasy didn't use to be a huge part of the WW mythos until recently.
Portraying Amazons as accurate to the Greek myths would go against Marston's statement as well.
Edited by Allisterarch on Aug 17th 2024 at 6:32:40 AM
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)In common language, yes, a better name than "Esquecida" could have probably been selected, but in concept, the Esquecida tribe is fine. In my first readings of Wonder Woman Rebirth, Future State Wonder Woman, Future State: Superman Wonder Woman, Future State: Justice League, Wonder Girl Infinite Frontier, Trial of The Amazons and Lazarus Planet: Revenge of The Gods it seemed like the writing team in general and Joelle Jones in particular had no idea what to do with these Amazons of The Amazon and were just making it up as they went along, but looking it back it seems Jones had more of a plan than I gave her credit for.
I maintain that she knew no more about Brazil than I did, and I wouldn't trust myself now to write an ongoing based around Brazil specific fantasy without heavy research, a thorough reference guide or a knowledgeable consultant, even less so back in 2020, but the idea of an isolated, wood haunting tribe that is largely forgotten and likes it that way isn't bad. But come Trial of The Amazons, when the Esquecida formally introduce themselves in mass, the name Esquecida stops making sense. It was already established that they used to be known by some of the real life names given to the mythological Amazons Of rain forest and river, so why not revert to one of those? Gaboymila is the queen, so why not the Gaboymilas(because Gaboymilla and her golden kingdom were supposed to be hidden where Chile now stands, not Brazil, but you've already crossed that line so might as well roll with it)?
But I've already ranted about Yara Flor, the Esquecida, better ways they could have been handled and ways they could be better utilized going forward. Judging by your response you've read one of them already haven't you? The main things are that while The Amazons of the Amazon were definitely inspired by the Amazons of Hellenistic myth, they were very different from their Grecoroman predecessors. They were less the products of just so stories as the Greeks tried to make sense of the world and more so racist propaganda by invaders who wanted that shiny gold the natives were obviously hiding from them. What motivated DC to ever want to adapt The Amazons of the Amazon in the first place is beyond me, but I did like the touch that the Esquecida really weren't amazons at first and weren't accepted by The Bana-Mighdall and some of the ancient amazons who predated Amazonia's split int Themyscira and Bana-Mighdall. That the Esquecida got the idea that they were amazons from the wandering amazon Aella, but inherited the baggage that actually comes from being amazons from Aella and have kept it since they've remained loyal to Aella's daughter, Yara Flor. I've ranted about why I wouldn't have wanted to adapt the Amazons of The Amazon into my lighthearted super hero story, how Yara Flor and the Esquecida could have been used better, how they can be used better in the future, but I must admit there have been some salvageable ideas in the comic books.
Mainly, DC has to get its continuity, it's baseline continuity regarding Yara Flor and The Esquecida straight, and it needs to hire someone who actually knows the material, as a writer, editor or consultant or else have someone do an adequate amount of research. I know the "adequate" amount is daunting, as it requires not just knowing information about Brazil, which is largely in Portuguese, but also about dozens of Amazonas tribes with their own languages, many of whom have only recently been considered citizens of Brazil, not all of which actually live in Brazil's borders, but I didn't make this bed! DC's a damn near ninety year old company, doing this comic book thing longer than most of our grand parents have been alive! Warner Brothers, a billion dollar corporation! It shouldn't be that hard for well funded professionals! The Wonder Woman brand does make money, in spite its shoddy handling. It is a globally recognized brand, she was an honorary United Nations ambassador, the real life United Nations, until people complained and the UN retracted the status. Now imagine if this brand had more thought and care put into it. I don't think I could create a better symbol of Wonder Woman's wasted potential than Yara Flor if I tried. But the potential is still there to be tapped.
Buldogue's lawyerHARD AGREE! Not even I could write a story set in the Amazônia without a lot of research, as I know virtually necas de pitibiribanote about the North region beyond general info, much less about all the indigenous tribes there. The least I could do without extensive research (which would still be required either way) is to have Yara, while still being native Amazonian, grow in the South region—since not only miss Jones haphazardly used gaúcho culture as an inspiration, that's where I live.
Hard agree with Yara Flores being a huge wasted potential. She could have become a flagship Brazilian superhero, wearing my pátria's green, gold, blue and white colors, having adventures in the entire country (especially in contrast to say, Fire who's more based on the Brazilian Gotham City—er I mean Rio), with all the beautiful diversity and variety my dear Brasil has to offer. We'd also really benefit if we could have a superhero available to fight illegal loggers, miners etc in the Amazônia as well. (A "Jungle Western", if you will.) She could help impoverished civilians in the steppes of the Caatinga whenever there's a drought, and campaign for the preservation of indigenous and quilombola (traditional afro-brazilian) cultures as well, as well as the preservation of the Atlantic Rainforest. She could punch some actual neo-nazi cults in my hellstate of Santa Catarina and I would give huge cheers. Even some small slice-of-life stuff like seeing Yara commemorating the June Party (the actual biggest Brazilian celebration as it's commemorated everywhere, lol) as well as the traditional rites of her Amazonian tribe would make me really happy.
Yara growing up in the South while still being a heroine in the Amazônia as well as the entirely rest of Brazil would be a huge statement as well. My region (especially my hellstate) has flirted with seccessionist beliefs for a long while. Having a Southern-grown superhero standing up for this whole messy country would mean a lot. But I digress.
Edited by Allisterarch on Aug 19th 2024 at 9:26:48 AM
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)Mind you, dealing with Greek myth doesn't just mean dealing with gods. There's monsters, demigods, other heroes and villains.
There's a lot you can do with mythology beyond just fighting gods. Even minor gods can be used for smaller scale stories.
The Bana aren't used that way anymore, primarily because portraying the tribe of predominantly black and brown Amazons as a more violent foil to the mostly white Themyscirans has really bad optics.
I do know enough to know "Yara Flor" doesn't actually mean anything in any indigenous language. I wouldn't change her name, but I would give her a "civilian" identity that went by an indigenous name, based on whichever tribe her river god father, who has yet to be revealed, is associated with. I like her outfit, and I wouldn't get rid of it, but yes she should have another outfit that actually reflects the fact she is Brazilian in some way. She can swap between them. One thing that was cool about Wonder Woman's "mod" era was that she regularly swapped outfits. I don't know why she couldn't do that with her super hero tube tops, why Supergirl ended up getting that Unlimited Wardrobe gimmick, but it's technically back in Wonder Woman's books with Cassie Sandsmark. Then just spread it back to Diana, Donna and Yara, maybe even Nubia, Artemis and Peng(but not Jason)
I can see the Jerk Ass Gods being reduced a bit in Wonder Woman's stories too. They should still be in the plot, in my opinion, but directly fighting is something I'd save for Diana's main events. Not just for your reasons of Diana not being a Public Domain Character as they are, but also because whether she has been gifted some of their attributes at birth or attained them after a training regimen that required taking an oath to Aphrodite, Wonder Woman is explicitly a proxy of the gods, not a peer. She might be stronger, faster, wiser and more skilled in combat than most of them, but it's established the god sphere where gods live is a separate multiverse from the mortal one, that gods act in the mortal realm through proxies. Most of the time Wonder Woman would be clashing with other proxies, actual dust ups with gods would be rare, big deals for her.
Exceptions of course would be Diana being unusually close with Ares due to him being Hippolyta's father. It'd also be a way for Cassie Sandsmark and Yara Flor to be more unique in that they are considered peers of the gods by circumstances of their births, but only the Hellenistic gods would treat Cassie as such, and only which ever pantheon Yara's dad is apart of would treat her as such. Otherwise they'd still be mostly interacting with intermediaries as well.
Edited by IndirectActiveTransport on Aug 17th 2024 at 12:40:40 PM
Buldogue's lawyerYara's problem is that she is a 5G remnant.
She was created as apart of a bunch if characters to full on replace Wonder Woman.
But when 5G got canned that mean her entire reason for existing went up in smoke and now she's just a hanger on.
It will take a while until someone figures out what to do with her especially since her Future State Justice League definitely ain't forming anytime soon.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."Exceptions of course would be Diana being unusually close with Ares due to him being Hippolyta's father.
I like this take. I do feel the Amazons should have more respect for their Goddesses and Gods after all, as part of their religion. (Then again, not against syncretism with, say, Scythian deities, even if they keep their Greek names for translation convention. Hestia playing a larger role, basically.) The contrast with Cassie and Yara is an interesting point, as well.
As for Yara, I'd maybe have either Renata herself or an original Indigenous Brazilian character as her biological mother instead. I wonder if her father could be the "River Dolphin", as in the North there's a legend about the river dolphin
assuming the form of a man and mating with damsels. IIRC he's a trickster figure much like Loki.
But I do think she should get a different surname or nickname other than "Flor" (literally just Flower, which can be silly as it's coloquially used as an affectionate pet name similar to "sweetie"). Flores, however, is an actual surname. Here in Brazil the usual is for a kid to inherit both their father and mother's surnames, so Yara would get the surname of her stepfather if she has one, as well. (I'd suggest Ribeiro as her second surname, a common enough surname which means "brook".) And for indigenous tribes, the name of her tribe would have been her surname, so her ethnic surname would be how the "Amazons of the Amazon" choose to call themselves (e.g. Coniupuiara or Iamaricumã, even Gaboymila if you're going for syncretism).
As a side note, I would love if Ya'Wara Tapirapé was brought back as a supporting character for Yara's adventures—Yara herself could be related to the Tapirapé
note tribe as well. I may dislike the whole Aquaman and the Others ordeal (mostly because Aquaman is uhhh not Namor and what is he even doing on the surface?? But also for similar reasons I dislike the Global Guardians—please just let every country have their own teams, my country is huuuge), but I wouldn't deny Ya'Wara might've been a promising character on her own. (The one thing I'd change about her—other than, well, no Atlantean artifacts—is making her just a native Tapirapé rather than an USAmerican girl plane crashing into the woods. Although she was created by Geoff Johns who notoriously does not have a good track record when handling representation, Ya'Wara was still designed by Brazilian artists Ivan Reis and Joe Prado, after all.) I very much believe there's a huge potential on Yara teaming up with other Brazilian characters in the DCU (many of which would also need a lot of retooling lol but perhaps not as bad as Yaranote . I would only either change Allegra Garcia's first name to Amanda or simply have her Venezuelan-Brazilian instead, for example). Gimme a Justice League of Brazil, please!
Edited by Allisterarch on Aug 19th 2024 at 11:08:00 AM
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)I don't care for Ares being Hippolyta's father. I know it's the case in some of the myths but I feel the need to insert fathers into narrative of the Amazons (barring ones like Donna and Cassie at least) feels like it takes away from the core theme of the Wonder Woman story.
Then again, I also think Ares works better as a gray character at worst and Zeus should be Diana's main godly antagonist as he embodies what she hates far worse than Ares ever will.
Arthur's had surface adventures for decades, long before the New 52. There's nothing wrong with him dealing with both the surface and Atlantis. His sidekicks do both as well.
I have no problem with countries having their own super teams. But I don't see why that is mutually exclusive with Multinational Teams like the Others and the Global Guardians. Even the Justice League technically counts as one.
It's just because I don't actually care about Aquaman (or Garth or Jackson for that matter) having surface adventures, lol. Every other hero has surface adventures. Even Superman and Wonder Woman used to be able to survive underwater as well, so they fit that kind of "can work in basically every environment" bill more. I want Aq writers to actually explore their underwater setting (mind you it's a huuuuuuuuge world, full of biodiversity and variety. Three-quarters of our Earth. As well as a generous number of watery Pocket Dimensions and many many other water planets in the DCU if you wanna leave Earth). It also makes more sense for surface-dwelling villains to resort on advanced tech to fight underwater than getting Aq out of his environment. I even want the silly one-hour limit brought back, lol.
It's true the Golden Age version of Aquaman was more surface-based Ocean Punk, but not only that was way before the likes of Jacques Cousteau's documentaries advanced our knowledge of marine sciences in general, "Adam Waterman" is now considered a different version of Aq in Earth-2. Late Silver Age/Early Bronze Age era remains my favorite to this day as most stories were entirely underwater.
The problem is US-centrism, depending on how it's handled. The Justice League of America might be considered international, but it's mostly written as USAmerica's own superteam (especially in stories where they oppose teams such as the Justice League of China). Why does the USA get to have their own bonafide superteam with all these numerous heroes while all other countries, even countries as populous as Brazil and Indonesia, need to resort to something like the Global Guardians? It would make sense for a few smaller countries to have their own united superteam (e.g. the European Union having a shared team) but I don't see why Brazil at least couldn't have our own superteam in the DCU. We're as populous and as wide as the USA.
I prefer the Justice League International to the Global Guardians. It sells its premise of being a globalized team (rather than a "everything outside the USA" team) better, due to having a member of the JLA (WW) as representative. I do agree national teams and international teams are not mutually exclusive, but I'd rather just have the JLI instead. And I do think it should play a larger role in the DCU.
(I know the answer is DC Comics is USAmerican media so it's full of Creator Provincialism, but the truth remains USian media is so popular worldwide it can influence worldviews on the rest of the world.)
Edited by Allisterarch on Aug 18th 2024 at 10:35:07 AM
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)That's fair.
Do they? Most of the team is American.
Taking it back to Wonder Woman (the topic of this thread):
- Should Clea still be a Wonder Woman villain or is she better off as an Aquaman villain?
- Speaking of U Scentrism, should Diana's costume colors be changed?
Yeah, there were too many USAmerican members at first. But I am not against an Improved Second Attempt at the premise.
Depends, since WW and Aq are tailored for different genres, but they could share. Clea as a WW villain rules over a Foil of Themiscyra (thinking about it, Venturia might work better as a "more violent"—for lack of a better expression—Foil than the Bana, especially considering the existence of the similar citizens of Aurania as allies). Clea as an Aquaman villain simply rules over one of the many "barbarian" (the older meaning of "foreigner") forces opposing mainland Atlantis, and she's a Foil for King Arthur as a stern Queen upholding the traditions of her people. Joining forces against Clea with the people of Aurania as allies is the one occasion I wouldn't mind a WW and Aq crossover, especially if the whole story is underwater and Diana is able to breathe water and talk to animals like she used to. I'd like to see fleshed out civvies of Venturia living their lives as well, some even joining their side. (I hold a staunch opinion civilians and their lives are the most important part of a hero narrative.)
Don't have much an opinion on it, but I do think either Diana's color scheme, instead of the red stripes, should be a more pink-ish scheme like the Wonder Girls (or even a color traditionally associated with the feminist movement, such as purple—she can keep the starry blue sky though, as it's a significant part of the lore), or Yara should be allowed to wear the colors of Brazil in similar manner. Just to keep the pattern.
Edited by Allisterarch on Aug 18th 2024 at 5:48:54 AM
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)Clea stays a Wonder Woman villain, and that's that. If you want to compromise, compromise. Atlantis was a piece of fiction done by Greek writers, and Greek philosophers for the sake of entertaining Greeks, but the Aquaman office wants it? Fine, have Atlantis. Wonder Woman keeps Clea, keeps Eeras, keeps Aurania, keeps Ventura, keeps the manlings, all of it. Every detail of the twin water cities, however modified, are kept. If they're no longer part of Atlantis fine. They're water nymphs, water sprites, water daemons, the human servants of water god/goddess x reborn into super strong water breathing bodies...even though the manlings are all tiny for some reason. They took some watery oath, drank some sea potion, were afflicted by some curse of the depths. They inhabit some watery extradimenional realm, some watery magical plane, some watery pockets produced by the wards Themyscira or the Dimension Chi/X mirror. Come up with whatever is necessary to make sure Aquaman's writers don't feel that their toes are being stepped on. Water is the most common drink in all human cultures, among the most common molecule in the known universe, surely some compromise can be reached. The Wonder Woman mythos has lost enough in the name of making it "fit" into the DCU already.
Okay, if it's a bad element of the Wonder Woman mythos no one can excuse or find a way to salvage, by all means drop it on someone else's book, but Clea stays! She's a founding member of Villainy Inc, the first Legion of Doom DC actually published themselves rather than acquired through predatory business. Villainy Inc, which was the conclusion of the multi issue Empire of Saturn arc. Villain Inc, where Clea formed a Villainous Friendship with Giganta. Villainy Inc. of which Clea has been a member three separate times in "main" continuity(Golden Age, and twice, Post Crisis). If that means the Wonder Woman books have to loan a writer, an artist, a hack to the Aquaman books to help them come up with a suitable substitute villain, their own Clea, so be it. Clea stays, Eeras stays, the manlings stay, everything Aurania and Ventura stay, they stay isolated, watery and Wonder Womany. Devil Ray, Aquaman can have Devil Ray! He can harass Aqualad or something.
As for Wonder Woman's outfit? There is a story line reason for it being red white and blue. No reason to change it. Here's a revolutionary concept. Let Wonder Woman wear more than one outfit, like most ambassadors and princesses do. Actually that's not revolutionary at all, that's what she did in the "Mod" era. Just apply that to the "classical" Wonder Woman design rather than a fleeting fashion trend, it's varied so much over the years as is. Cassie Sandsmark already does it, Donna to a lesser extent. Look through Infinite Frontier and note all the variations in Nubia's attire. Just make it official. Amazons are changing their clothes! Yara's in a patriotic mood this Friday, she dresses like the Brazil national team. Hey, there's a festival in Paraíba, so Yara's wearing the colors of the Paraiba flag today, or the Paraiba coat of arms, go nuts. The flag of Amazonas is red white and blue
, so have Yara get that too, with some animal significant to Amazonas in place of an eagle.
Edited by IndirectActiveTransport on Aug 18th 2024 at 5:45:25 AM
Buldogue's lawyer
I like the idea of Venturians and Auranians being nature nymphs. Especially since the names of their cities are already derived from wind/air in Latin and Greek respectively (ventus and auras).
I support the Aq verse having an Expy of Clea instead, with a slightly different interpretation (i.e. no "manlings", just slightly different gender roles). Funnily enough the Super Friends cartoon already had a Clea Expy, Queen Ocina. Perhaps they could bring her back as a Canon Immigrant.
I'd say Queen Marella would serve a similar purpose as well (Lady Karshon in the second Aq movie definitely felt inspired by her), though she's Earth-2. I'd rather have less Aq characters with names derived from the word sea in Latin, though. (Orm Marius, Esther Maris and "Mareena" from the DCAU were already stretching way too much.)
Also, nothing indicates Yara would be associated with the state of Amazonas in specific. There are seven states in the North region of Brazil, the region covered by the Amazon. Not only that, but Amazônia
also encompasses patches of the Central-West region, as well as the Northeastern state of Maranhão. (The aforementioned Tapirapés are between the Northern state of Tocantins and the Central-West state of Mato Grosso.) And most states tend to follow a green, yellow, white and blue scheme for their flags, though whether it's all four colors or just a selection of three varies. All states in the Central-West including the Federal District follow that scheme, and Amazonas and Pará are the only states in the North region with a red, white and blue scheme (they are the largest states in area, though).
It's worth noting Brasil is basically three completely different countries patched together: the tropical and humid Amazônia, the semiarid Northeast, and the more temperate, urban and agrarian "Central-South" (Central West, Southeast and South regions).
Edited by Allisterarch on Aug 19th 2024 at 11:04:40 AM
If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)How strong is Donna? Like, where does she stand alongside some of the heavier hitters of the DC Universe?
Just been wondering.
One Strip! One Strip!The attributes of Donna Troy, her powers in particular really depend on who is writing her.
In the Silver Age, Donna Troy was generally average to above average for an Amazon, with the catch that she wasn't supposed to have the typical Amazon weaknesses of the time(go ahead, bind my bracelets together, dummy! What's that, the Amazons have to leave the Earth or lose all their powers? Okay, come back safe mom!) In the Silver Age, the Amazons kind of tended to suck, especially outside of Wonder Woman's own book but sometimes even there too. Teen Titans tended to portray Donna as inferior to Starfire, once Starfire showed up, in strength-speed-toughness if not necessarily skill and guile.
Post Crisis. Well Donna's powers kept changing. Donna's everything kept changing. Generally she ranged from equal to Wonder Woman by default, to inferior to Wonder Woman without a boost, and however relative to Starfire as the writer felt was most convenient. Seriously, Donna ranged from beating up Green Lantern's Superior Successor Jade and Fallen Angel Eclipso, from surviving a shot In the Back from dimension destroying gynoid Trinity to getting killed by a damaged, defective Superman robot.
New 52, Donna Troy was portrayed as failed attempt to duplicate Diana. So she was slower and unable to fly, and probably a little weaker too BUT Donna Troy had some freaking Pulling Themselves Together powers that Diana did not. Diana also got the powers of War God Ares that were supposed to make her more powerful than ever, but instead started killing Diana because she refused to embrace her status as war god, so Donna Troy was actually stronger than Diana...because Diana essentially was dying, and she still managed to kick Donna's ass and imprison her. Then Teen Titans went and changed Donna again, because why not, that whole "evil failed clone of Diana" was brainwashing and False Memories so um... Donna basically was Diana?
Rebirth went back to the beginning, sort of. Donna was mostly equal to but less competent than Diana. She could fly, she just couldn't figure out how until The Batman Who Laughs brainwashed her, strong but a bit too bullheaded to properly take advantage of it and an inferiority complex that cause her to overtax herself, more so than Diana already did...Then writer Jason Aaron turned her back into a failed evil clone of Diana, the readers complained, Aaron left the book and last I checked they're going with "she's kind of like Diana, and definitely isn't some freaky evil clay clone".
Edited by IndirectActiveTransport on Aug 19th 2024 at 7:33:58 AM
Buldogue's lawyerIt's sad how the Amazons being Faux Action Girl jobbers is a theme in both the myths and the Wonder Woman comics.
I wouldn't call them jobbers in the myths. There are only three instances in the recorded myths we have of an Amazon army being defeated, two of which involve the gods actively skewing the odds in their enemies' favor, and one of which is against the literally invincible Achilles. Most of their "losses" are individual soldiers or stuff like Heracles successfully escaping their territory with one of their belongings.
What DC really has is a consistency issue, especially had it back in the Silver Age. It was DC themselves writing Diana as strong as/stronger than Hercules, fast as/faster than Mercury, wise as Athena etc. DC who showed all the amazons were super human to a degree, that Mala was almost as fast as Diana, Herculina is almost as strong, etc. It was DC who kept drawing parallels to Superman and Atlas, it's not my fault Hercules is comparable to Atlas in the source material, that I should thus expect Wonder Woman to be comparable to Superman, especially when her very creator said she was. But now it's the JSA book, so Jay Garrick gets to run circles around Diana even though Flash explicitly isn't faster than Hermes. Hermes=Mercury DC! It's the JLA book, so Diana needs coddling from the big strong men she should officially be taller than most of. You told me Silver Age Diana was six foot DC! The Titans roster is expanding and you just drew the short straw Donna! Now take a dive so the new sun drinking alien can look good! But as I'm not really a fan of the other titles to begin with, it doesn't bug me as much as it probably should. I just pointed out facts, made an observation, wasn't complaining.
It did really get excessive at points though. Supergirl got her own self titled solo series and before its first full year she was already dumping all over Paradise Island and Floating Island. Floating Island never got so much as a reference outside of Wonder Woman's own book otherwise, Cary Bates actually did research for the sake of portraying Amazonian inferiority! It's wasn't just that Supergirl was oh so much more powerful, that's standard Superman wanking, but Kara was so wonderful Hippolyta forgot about Donna Troy's existence. Silver Age Amazons usually just kinda sucked outside of Wonder Woman's book. It was only the occasional writer who had them suck all the way to the back.
Edited by IndirectActiveTransport on Aug 19th 2024 at 11:12:31 AM
Buldogue's lawyer

Or watched the DCAU haha