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Liberty University Reverses Campus Gun Ban

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Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#176: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:19:16 PM

Car crashes do happen, as you said. That's just something we can't prevent entirely, whether the item is prohibited or not.

This implies that gun-related deaths could be prevented entirely if they were banned... But as I've stated before, this is only true if a police state is instituted...

we might as well devolve to the point in which we're discussing the pros and cons of not allowing people with any sort of Martial Arts (or equivalent) training to enter the campus ground.

Right?

That's just silly, pvtnum... Everyone knows that martial arts are only used to hurt people("self defense" my ass...) and therefore anyone who knows martial arts should be banned from campus because they're a threat to all the other students there. tongue

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#177: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:20:35 PM

I don't know what Tom meant by [up][up][up].

[up][up]I've understood what Swish was trying to say. But I have yet to see justification for countering the gun with itself, considering the factors.

Tom, I believe that we have a right to defend ourselves and guns aren't excluded just because they're firearms. But we have to consider, in a public place, a right to defend itself from the potential risks. How far is debatable of course.

Speaking of evidence, do you have any that allowing guns will make things safer and better, evidence specifically pertaining to a university? Columbine and Virginia Tech were exceptions. The rest of the normal, gun-free days in the schools, mundane yet peaceful days, count as evidence too. You can't rule that out.

[up]This implies that gun-related deaths could be prevented entirely if they were banned...

What? That directly contradicts my words you quoted. I said, ban or no ban, you cannot prevent them entirely.

Removing a ban is not a solution just because a ban isn't as effective as you want it to be.

edited 23rd Nov '11 3:22:44 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#178: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:24:20 PM

I don't know what Tom meant by

Police, security you know. Allow guns on campus but have your own stuff to keep things in order. It's not a case of either a gun ban or no cops. Allow firearms but have cops on site. (It would help greatly in the case of dormitories because robbery is rampant in those.)

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#179: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:26:12 PM

Columbine cold not be prevented, unless faculty were armed. You do not typically allow minors in High School to carry anything that can be used as a weapon. And I'm fine with that policy.

I grew up in a time period in which we didn't have metal detectors or school security guards and all that crap. Kids settled their differences with fists, not knives or shootings.

The fact that we need that stuff now points to a degrade in society at large, although it's just a gut feeling I have.

So, do we slap some more bans on stuff, or identify and fix the root cause?

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#180: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:31:26 PM

Go for the cause. A degenerate society will still find ways to kill each other and bans are reactionary whereas a degenerate society is proactive in finding new ways to kill each other.

vanthebaron Mystical Monkey Master from Carlyle, Il Since: Sep, 2010
Mystical Monkey Master
#181: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:32:00 PM

Tom how do you get from "no gun on campus" to "police state". Every college in my state has campus security. And they are pretty lax. Just tell them "no guns on campus for the saftey of everyone here".

Untitled Power Rangers Story
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#182: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:33:16 PM

Tom how do you get from "no gun on campus" to "police state".

The latter is the only way to actually make the former. Going "on the honor system" to trust that folks will follow the ban will only end in tragedy eventually.

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#183: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:35:23 PM

If the campus staff bans firearms on campus, so be it. If they allow them, so be it. Then you sit back and get a few years of data and find out who had the better/worse safety record (and in which areas it was better or worse), and draw the needed conclusions.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#184: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:36:58 PM

And if it's a wash? As in the data supports either side equally?

edited 23rd Nov '11 3:38:57 PM by MajorTom

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#185: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:40:44 PM

I don't think it would wash.

But if it did - then both the gun rights crowd and the gun control crowd have no solid evidence to support their positions, and we go right back to square one and debate this for another fifty years.

Joy.

I'm going to grab some coffee. Anyone want any?

edited 23rd Nov '11 3:41:13 PM by pvtnum11

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#186: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:42:24 PM

"Police, security you know. Allow guns on campus but have your own stuff to keep things in order. It's not a case of either a gun ban or no cops. Allow firearms but have cops on site. (It would help greatly in the case of dormitories because robbery is rampant in those.)"

I don't really know about this. If we have police to guard us, shouldn't that be who we trust to carry self-defense weapons for emergencies? They're employed for that purpose. Students are not.

Nowadays we don't condone Andrew Jackson-styled duels to settle personal feuds like it was the western movies. If someone has a gun for self-defense, and uses it to shoot someone that may have been hostile, it's still going to cause an issue. The suspect may not necessarily be a dangerous assailant, but a gun can't differentiate that. Especially in a university.

[up]Since for the majority of the time schools enjoy gun-free peace, the evidence seems to point that a ban on campuses isn't doing any harm. The exceptions tend to hinge on the inevitable side anyway.

edited 23rd Nov '11 3:42:50 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#187: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:47:44 PM

I don't really know about this. If we have police to guard us, shouldn't that be who we trust to carry self-defense weapons for emergencies? They're employed for that purpose. Students are not.

Isn't that like saying "since the police protect us, why allow people in general to have guns"?

Students(18 and over, obviously) who can get a gun permit should be able to exercise their right to carry...

Since for the majority of the time schools enjoy gun-free peace, the evidence seems to point that a ban on campuses isn't doing any harm. The exceptions tend to hinge on the inevitable side anyway.

Just to point out: There hasn't been a University shooting in Colorado either... and they allow guns on campus(so long as the person has a permit if/when the police stop them to check)...

pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#188: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:51:48 PM

The only quibble I have about a no-guns policy is for the recreational shooters and those who hunt when/where hunting is an option.

That old bolt-action rifle? Not the best thign for self-defense, and certainly not suited for daily carry around campus - so that guy down the hall who has an old Lee-Enfield locked up in his room would be just as helpless out in the quad if a beserk shooter started popping caps.

But, well-suited for deer season or simply going to the range and using it as a rather loud and expensive paper punch to punch holes in paper targets. People actually compete at being able to use those paper punches, up to and including the Olympics.

Not all gun owners buy them for self-defense reasons alone, or even as their primary purpose. A gun ban would inconvience those students, although I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#189: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:53:20 PM

Isn't that like saying "since the police protect us, why allow people in general to have guns"?

Students(18 and over, obviously) who can get a gun permit should be able to exercise their right to carry...

Again, university settings. Police in general apply to the general settings, where there are private property.

Now using Trivialis handle.
Katrika Since: Jul, 2009
#190: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:56:08 PM

Tom: Without the proper training, someone with a gun in a stressful situation is as much of a hazard as the assailant. Proper training doesn't mean gun training, by the way.

I think it's reasonable to ban them on a campus, at least as far as students are concerned. I don't think it's reasonable to ban them everywhere. Nor do I think that guns automatically are only used for hurting.

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#191: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:56:47 PM

Honest question - Campuses rely on their own internal security force rather than relying on public police, or...?

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Katrika Since: Jul, 2009
#192: Nov 23rd 2011 at 3:58:49 PM

Well, my campus relies on both. We have our own security force, but when a student got held up at gunpoint on campus by muggers, the local police started patrolling heavily at night.

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic
Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#193: Nov 23rd 2011 at 4:00:00 PM

[up][up] Most campuses have their own police force, which is augmented by(or, more likely, augments) the city's local police, if necessary.

Edit: I tend to think of it as a precinct of the local police on campus...

Again, university settings. Police in general apply to the general settings, where there are private property.

And now we're back to "we can't trust people who attend universities"...

edited 23rd Nov '11 4:01:20 PM by Swish

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#194: Nov 23rd 2011 at 4:00:55 PM

@pvtnum 11

In our case, our campus has its own police department.

To point out that I don't advocate a general gun ban, here's a responsible way to use guns, and even then, the woman was remorseful. She was on 911 during the whole process.

[1]

The issue is whether that applies to a university settings, and I think there's a difference.

And now we're back to "we can't trust people who attend universities"...

I would say that in a university, we have to think more in terms of the integrated community. By attending a university, you have allowed your membership to stand side by side with your own status as an individual.

edited 23rd Nov '11 4:07:01 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
Swish Long Live the King Since: Jan, 2001
Long Live the King
#195: Nov 23rd 2011 at 4:14:51 PM

I would say that in a university, we have to think more in terms of the integrated community. By attending a university, you have allowed your membership to stand side by side with your own status as an individual.

I'd agree that universities are, essentially, small towns... And I'm of the general opinion that private colleges/universities can do whatever the hell they want(Liberty University is a private school)...

My thing is that public universities shouldn't be allowed to ban guns at all, because they are state schools... Yes they may be small towns/cities of themselves, but SCOTUS has already determined that cities can't prevent people from owning guns. And a gun ban could bar student from owning a gun, by not allowing them to keep it in their dorm(the problem with making the exception is a person usually has to bring that gun on campus to get it to their room)...

edited 23rd Nov '11 4:15:27 PM by Swish

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#196: Nov 25th 2011 at 1:00:05 AM

I'm admittedly thread hopping, but I'll briefly comment on the issue.

Pvtnum11's post #175 has a great deal of truth in it. The gun debate is as tiring as the abortion debate, and many people have a particularly bad habit of spending more time tweaking the arguments and playing rhetoric games instead of truly addressing the issue in a realistic and holistic method.

I've probably already been ninja'd by pointing this out, god willing, but if we are having a discussion about the very notion of promoting greater self-defense on an institution of education, we have bigger problems to confront. I'm certainly not attempting to crush the validity of this discussion. I personally hate it when people jump on threads just to point out how idiotic or pointless they think the thread is and then leave without a reasonable explanation.

What I do mean is that the existence of this topic, this gun ban reversal, elucidates - or should elucidate - a fundamental problem with violence and the illusion of security that factors into the deeper parts of humanity. This isn't just some contemporary political issue that will pass with time. I'm not anti-gun nor do I subscribe to the notion that all responsible students should be armed, but I really believe that there's a serious problem in modern civilization when a college student can't walk through his own campus at night without feeling afraid of being mugged, raped or killed.

I won't delve into my opinion on the matter beyond stating that having guns on campus is only distancing the community from the problem of the potential of violence rather than solving it. In other words, this has less to do with guns, cars, baseball bats and other crap you all keep analogizing as weapons or non-weapons and more to do with heavily ingrained trends and attitudes toward violence and security that have existed since the dawn of our species. Of course, derailing into that part of the human condition is beyond the scope of the topic, but you get my point.

Erock Proud Canadian from Toronto Since: Jul, 2009
Proud Canadian
#197: Nov 25th 2011 at 4:58:09 AM

[up]I'd say it's much more an issue of American society.

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
vanthebaron Mystical Monkey Master from Carlyle, Il Since: Sep, 2010
Mystical Monkey Master
#198: Nov 25th 2011 at 9:06:49 AM

^^^ no it's doesn't stop you from owning a gun, a ban of guns on campus just tells you that you can't bring them to school. And their are no public colleges, every college makes their own rules independent of the state.

Untitled Power Rangers Story
pvtnum11 OMG NO NOSECONES from Kerbin low orbit Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
OMG NO NOSECONES
#199: Nov 25th 2011 at 10:04:18 AM

Aprilla: The underlying root casue has been touched on, yes, but we seem to not focus on it. Not sure why. Allowing/not allowing is simply masking the problem.

To fix the problem, you don't merely fix symptoms. That is what small arms legistlation usually ends up doing, it seems like.

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#200: Nov 25th 2011 at 10:09:40 AM

And their are no public colleges,

State universities say hi.

every college makes their own rules independent of the state.

So long as it doesn't run counter to State/Federal law. It's why in Colorado no public university may enact a gun ban.


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