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alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:03:40 PM

"Mutants never get AIDS and their blood can, in fact, cue AIDS."

vs

"Nightcrawler becomes the Pope and communion wafers make people turn to dust, thus making people believe in the Rapture, even though the Rapture isn't actually a Catholic belief."

...

I don't know which is worse, actually.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:12:47 PM

Personally, I hated the concept of The Draco for the Broken Aesop where people who look like demons are demons even more than the mutants being immune to AIDS bullcrap. The former is one of the worst morals you could possibly preach in a post-9/11 world.

How so?

slimcoder Insane Religious Murderbot
Insane Religious Murderbot
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:21:53 PM

Oh my God, didn't Ultimate Nightcrawler become obsessed with a girl who kept rejecting him, driving him further into the realms of lunacy & assholishness?

Does that mean he became an incel?

Nobody is innocent, there are merely varying levels of guilt. Oh and Primus hates you.
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:27:44 PM

[up]I feel like that was done deliberately to subvert how 616 Nightcrawler is considered a babe magnet.

"That's right kid. Never play an ace when a two will do."
flawlessvoid 2 minus 3 equals negative fun from White Hot Room Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
2 minus 3 equals negative fun
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:44:37 PM

Yeah, the Austen run is unequivocally worse. Rosenberg has written better comics (at least, I didn't think his New Mutants or Fallen Angels were bad). In contrast, I can't find anything other than a few decent Chuck Austen issues of anything he's written.

I suspect that Rosenberg's run will be analogous to Eve of Destruction. What's Eve of Destruction, some of you may ask? That's the point: it was the crossover event that immediately preceded Morrison's New X-Men that was aggressively mediocre at its best.

What's worse is that Austen followed a brief crappy 2nd run by Claremont and a...disappointing brief run by Joe Casey, both of whom are capable of much better things. So we were already getting used to the decaying quality of the stories.

It must be possible; it's happening!
alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Sep 21st 2019 at 12:55:52 PM

Rosenberg has written better comics (at least, I didn't think his New Mutants or Fallen Angels were bad)
Rosenberg didn't write any Fallen Angels book. He wrote New Mutants: Dead Souls and a Multiple Man mini-series, both of which were...okay. His best book is actually Four Kids Walk into a Bank, which is just great all around, but I've heard good things about his Punisher run, too.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 21st 2019 at 2:36:40 PM

Ah, Chris Claremont.

"WHAT THE DEVIL WHAT THE DEVIL WHAT THE DEVIL WHAT THE DEVIL WHAT THE DEVIL WHAT THE DEVIL WHAT THE DEVIL WHAT THE DEVIL—-"

Sorry, just got done seeing the work he did on Exiles.

Does he use that phrase a lot elsewhere?

Sign on for this After The End Fantasy RP.
HandsomeRob Completely trustworthy from The world that never was Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Completely trustworthy
Sep 21st 2019 at 2:39:14 PM

[up]

If he does, itís not nearly as much as he mentions how Psylockeís Psychic dagger all of her focused power...

... or something along those lines.

Everyone is XEHANORT
RodimusMinor Not actually a minor
Not actually a minor
Sep 21st 2019 at 2:43:46 PM

The proper term is "focused totality."

HandsomeRob Completely trustworthy from The world that never was Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Completely trustworthy
Sep 21st 2019 at 2:54:46 PM

In terms of Krakoa, I've heard some other concerns brought up;

What if someone gets themselves uploaded into a clone body that is not their own?

What if Xavier in order to censor or eliminate certain memories uploads an earlier version of someone to their clone body?

And what if someone is merely thought dead and is then cloned, and then the "original" comes back AND / OR; what if someone is dead, is cloned, then comes back to life some other way?

Sign on for this After The End Fantasy RP.
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:29:38 PM

Some of those were mentioned in the comic, with the last one there was talk about having to do a search for missing mutants before cloning them.

HandsomeRob Completely trustworthy from The world that never was Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Completely trustworthy
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:37:14 PM

So what about Vance Astrovik / Justice?

He's a mutant, but he's nowhere near this, even though Firestar is running with the X-people again.

Then again, she was always a little more connected to the X-franchise via the Hellions.

Also, what about Molly Hayes? If they are gathering every single Mutant to be part of the group, then what about the ones who already have someone?

Then again, Molly's never been very fond of the X-people either.

Everyone is XEHANORT
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:45:47 PM

They have only extended the offer to all mutants, they aren't trying to force mutants to come to Krakoa.

HandsomeRob Completely trustworthy from The world that never was Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Completely trustworthy
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:47:14 PM

Oh right.

Though that doesn't excuse Scott's comment about Franklin.

Everyone is XEHANORT
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:49:58 PM

That was Scott just being a dick. Also yes, Krakoa trying to get a monopoly on omega-level mutants.

HandsomeRob Completely trustworthy from The world that never was Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Completely trustworthy
Sep 21st 2019 at 6:15:37 PM

You know what's really sad?

This whole thing with how they are reviving previously killed mutants, along with the Krakoa longevity drugs reminds me of a thought I had (which I may have brought up already) about how if Mankind wasn't so obsessed with MDK'ing mutants at every opportunity, they could have benefited from them greatly.

Wolverine (and he's just one example) and his healing factor could be the cure to an endless number of diseases for instance.

Some mutants could have helped revolutionize energy sources, or helped to solve Global Warming.

Their powers had the potential to fix the world that humanity had broken...except humans were too busy trying to kill them out of fear.

Now Mutants have taken their ball, and not gone home, but built their own fucking stadium (with all the black jack and hookers, but it's still a stadium despite that....yeah) where only they are allowed.

Nice job breaking your evolutionary children who could have made things better for the world mankind.

To say nothing of the fact that maybe mutants exist because aliens keep invading the damned planet. We need to evolve to deal with that.

Everyone is XEHANORT
Dr.XXX The Mad Doctor
The Mad Doctor
Sep 21st 2019 at 6:18:58 PM

[up] That would make the mutant metaphor a nuanced and complex look at mutants by extending the metaphor to generation gaps between Gen X and Millennials, Millennials and Gen Z. Each generation inherits the flaws of the last while absolutely making their own problems in the mean time which will be passed on.

Edited by Dr.XXX on Sep 21st 2019 at 9:19:18 AM

Sep 21st 2019 at 6:49:16 PM

[up] Extending the Metaphor to make it more relevant and nuanced, beyond "Humans blindly hate all Mutants"? We can't have that!

Seriously though, I've brought it up before, like in my pitch for a Renew Your Vows X-Men book, but I would totally read a book that actually tried to realistically conceptualize the Mutants as an actual Civil Rights movement in the Marvel Universe, and what the consequences would be.

Edited by megaeliz on Sep 21st 2019 at 9:53:43 AM

HamburgerTime Yes, mancubi are people too. from Scenic Mars City Relationship Status: I know
Yes, mancubi are people too.
Sep 21st 2019 at 6:57:29 PM

When written well, mutophobia is, at its core, a fear of being replaced. Much real-world bigotry is is the same. Did you know, for instance, that unless the highly unlikely event occurs that ALL of the next three or four Presidents continue Trump's draconian immigration policies, the US will be a minority-majority country in thirty years or so? That's a major part of why the right-wing nutjobs are so up in arms these days. They fear what will happen to them when society doesn't belong to them anymore. Mutophobia just makes the "replacement" literal, with baseline humans being "evolved out" by those damn dirty muties.

There's nothing that needs mending/Just follow my words, they will lead you to the ending.
Sep 21st 2019 at 6:59:54 PM

[up] Good insight, and something that more writers should take note of.

I actually have a rough timeline laid out for what a more realistic "Mutant Civil Rights Movement" might look like in the context of the Marvel Universe. (modern 616 X-Men canon is fundamentally broken, so let's assume this would be for a Renew Your Vows style Universe where Civil War and Ho M never happened)

The first generation of activists would be people like Charles Xavier and the original X-Men, and is considered part of the larger Civil Rights Movement in the Marvel Universe during the 60s and 70s.

The second generation of activists were the more diverse and larger Claremont era team. Along with the super-heroics by the X-Men, there was a larger effort to make their cause more visible than the relatively secretive first generation, and worked to advocate for legislation protecting mutant rights.

Younger Mutants are the most diverse and visible generation, and you start to see mutant subculture and Mutant pride movements. You could even have things like #Actually Mutant hashtags, Mutant Pride Parades, debates on language, and conflict between, for example, groups looking for cures of whatever, versus self advocacy groups arguing for providing accommodations and acceptance, etc. I also want to see new, younger, leaders in the Mutant Rights Movement and X-Men, who are open about their powers, and organizing through social media, intersectionality, and the like. This could also be a good way to have conflict within the mutant community itself. (ie Mutant isolationists vs. advocates for inclusion and accommodation in regular society)

So what do you guys think?

Edited by megaeliz on Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:52:48 AM

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Sep 21st 2019 at 7:33:39 PM

That sounds pretty good. And it tracks with what we've seen lately — the Mutant Pride event during the Iceman mini-series especially — prior to, of course, X-Men Disassembled.

Now, with Dawn of X, there's a lot more leeway in showing things like Mutant Pride and so on.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 21st 2019 at 9:19:15 PM

The Blob bites off the Wasp's head and then says she "tastes like chicken." Number of things wrong with it: 1) It's stuffing the Wasp in the fridge. 2) The Blob had never previously before been seen to eat human flesh or be cannibalistic in any way. 3) The Blob has a young daughter that goes to Midtown High in New York and yet he doesn't seem at all concerned about finding her, but instead...eating people? 4) It's fucking disgusting. 5) It's just terrible writing. There, those are the problems.

I'm not saying that there aren't good moments in Ultimatum. The initial premise ó Magneto messing with the planet's magnetosphere so much that it causes a giant tsunami to hit different places on the planet including New York ó really does work. It's a premise where the good guys can't just hit the bad guys and solve it and instead they have to work as rescue workers, trying to save as many as they can. But then...that's what it turns into, a good guy vs bad guy book. And there are dozens of moments that just there in order to kill people, without having the least bit of logic ó oh look Doctor Strange is dead, killed by a character who was never seen before. Whoops.

That's the problem with Ultimatum: it's a giant excuse to kill off a bunch of characters with a plot that makes no sense and goes nowhere. And the way the characters are killed off is often gross and disturbing for no reason other than to shock the reader and that's not a good reason.

1: Hardly. Hunders of people and heroes died, not just her. 2: Actually, yes, he did. In Ultimates 3. 3: Duh. He's a villain. 4 and 5: YMMV. I find the death of Jason Todd to be more shocking than that.

As for Dr. Strange, that was a continuity nod. When he first met Spider-Man, we were informed that, as long as that big crystal window on his mansion stands, all the demons are kept inside the house, unable to go to the world. Spider-Man found it broken by the wave in his tie-in issues, and both Nightmare and Dormammu escaped.

Ultimate Secret Wars
RodimusMinor Not actually a minor
Not actually a minor
Sep 21st 2019 at 9:23:06 PM

Nobody cares about Ultimate. This is the X-Men thread.

Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Relationship Status: Brony
Sep 21st 2019 at 9:55:07 PM

To bring it back to the X-Men: In addition to doing an atrocious job writing the Ultimates, Jeph Loeb also did one of the worst Wolverine runs. Up there with Frank Tieri and Marc Guggenheim.

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

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