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Ironeye Cutmaster-san from SoCal Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
#251: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:39:23 AM

We've now reached the point of arguing about what people said about what people said about reactions to the change. Let's bring this back to, you know, providing constructive feedback on the change itself. For example, I think that the menu lists would be more usable if the subpages had a sorting other than alphabetical. Main first, then standard subpages, then work namespaces, then language namespaces, with alphabetizing within sections (except perhaps giving the standard subpages a standard order of some kind) and clear dividers between.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#252: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:40:18 AM

The pictures are unnecessary but nice and I rather suspect that the lesser bandwidth consumption of text and links might reduce the need for ads.

Yes, it's convenient. The new system is not. People often value convenience over minor aesthetic changes. Apart from making things neater, the new system doesn't have much going for it.

Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#253: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:44:00 AM

I was trying to offer feedback. I suppose I came at a wrong time.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#254: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:45:30 AM

My phone isn't a good place to examine stuff from, which is why I've said nothing.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#255: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:45:39 AM

I actually find the system super convenient for space and speed. So YMMV on that. Likewise, only a select few seem to think it's inconvenient.

@Ironeye: I myself am hoping that the Drop Menu covers everything, including Analysis, Discussion, etc. I think that's more convenient than having two icons instead of the whole stack or none.

Quest 64 thread
troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#256: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:46:28 AM

Well, like I said earlier, while it's not a great replacement for the tabs, I think it works well as a supplement to the old version, since it catches the namespaces that don't have their own tabs. That's a useful function to have available.

Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#257: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:48:51 AM

Well, like I said earlier, while it's not a great replacement for the tabs, I think it works well as a supplement to the old version, since it catches the namespaces that don't have their own tabs. That's a useful function to have available.
If we're going for that, I think the list on the left side is fine, just make it collapseable. Drop-down menus are a bit clumsy.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#258: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:50:17 AM

It also makes sure that namespaces that don't show up for some reason do show up. It gets the job done well. Provides exact links, and is just as easy to click as is.

I've found Drop Menus extremely convenient over tons of cluttered tabs that are hard to click on a small computer. Drop Menus, like text, generally show up bigger.

Quest 64 thread
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#259: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:50:48 AM

A 'select few' being more people than prefer it. I like it as a supplement but even at its most basic I have to click twice, so I don't see how it can be quicker.

Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#260: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:55:09 AM

A 'select few' being more people than prefer it. I like it as a supplement but even at its most basic I have to click twice, so I don't see how it can be quicker.
I'm seeing a vertical menu to the left that does the same thing. Click once.

My suggestion replaces the first click with hover, which is typically faster as well.

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Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#261: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:01:33 AM

What scripting does the hover idea require, though?

I know a lot of plug-ins crash, especially on Google Chrome. Specifically java ones. Since those don't work perfectly for everyone, that could easily alienate users.

Quest 64 thread
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#262: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:03:19 AM

Why would you use full Java for basic site navigation?

Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#263: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:03:38 AM

What scripting does the hover idea require, though?
I did it entirely in HTML and CSS.

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#264: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:04:24 AM

[up] Ah.

I know how HTML works, but could you lightly explain CSS?

edited 15th Nov '11 1:04:52 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#265: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:07:25 AM

From what I can remember, they allow you to set styles and such for a whole site rather than having to change each page manually.

Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#266: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:07:27 AM

I know how HTML works, but could you lightly explain CSS?
CSS, or Cascading Style Sheets, is styling information added to a webpage. It affects things like position, colour, fonts, and a number of other things in websites. Pretty much every modern website uses it extensively, including this one.

Edit:^ That's one of the major benefits, yes.

edited 15th Nov '11 1:07:59 AM by Meophist

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Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#267: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:09:44 AM

@Meophist: Ah. That makes a bit more sense. I admit, a lot of ads and the obvious embedded video does go blank during a Plug-In Crash. Well, I have no worries about the Hovering, then. I'm a personal fan of the drop menu as it's easier to code(from experience), and just as easy to work with myself.

I could go for either, though. On a slow computer, hovering doesn't always work well with lag. From what I've noticed too.

[down] Flash affects part of Javascript though.

Either way, as long as those crashes won't affect the hovering, the only thing we gotta worry about is lag.

edited 15th Nov '11 1:20:45 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#268: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:13:47 AM

Website code is a byzantine mess, even with simple sites.

What's crashing in those instances is Flash, not Java.

Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#269: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:21:18 AM

[up](post 246) What Raineh said (thanks for saving some time). Also, Raineh I empathize with your last statement. I hate the time vortex that opens up when I visit forums, which is why I try to avoid them save to solve a specific issue of immediate importance.

I guess I do have some responses, though.

That was constructive criticism that he listened to.
He also listened to all those that asked for the old system back. Complaining and constructive criticism are not mutually exclusive.

We're not paying for anything. We're testing it. In order for us to be actual customers, we need to deal out money. This isn't the case, so yes, we're the testers.
Customer: A party that receives or consumes products (goods or services) and has the ability to choose between different products and suppliers. Plus, we pay with our ad views.

You're not wasting any actual time. Those seconds won't add up unless you're looking at a ton of pages, which they would've added up in the first place, now wouldn't it?

Also, none of your second paragraph has any weighing in here since you're not doing any of that. We're not going to lose traffic at all. This is no different from before we had icons. You could click on them all the same. Your situation is beyond hypothetical and just not true.

I dislike that you dismiss my well supported conclusion as hypothetical and untrue while making an unsupported and actually untrue statement. I did give a view of mine at the end, but that was an expectation of mine, not a hypothesis. The hypothesis was that making people do more work = less traffic.

So doing a bit more work is actually a problem now? Oh, wait... it's not. Once again, it's a nice feature, but only that. It's convenient, but not outright needed. There's a difference here.
By what (to head off the physicists, relevant) definition of work is less of it a bad thing? It pretty unambiguously is a problem, and you keep making no argument to back your claim that it isn't up.

And none of this makes a difference if nobody does it. Not everybody chooses the best option, maybe because they're using an older computer that can't? As long as it's strictly an option and not forced, it's not a problem. Likewise, it's still not needed as an option anyway. Nobody's forcing you to read it in a new tab. In fact, it's just as fast to go to the page, and read through it as is. Only thing I can see is moving tropes, and I use Notepad myself for that, since it's faster than tabbing.
I'm confused as to why the inability of a few to use the best option means no one should have that option. And I was was annoyed by the dropdown menu because it forced me to not open the link in a new tab. And if it's in a new tab, I can 1. not watch it load, 2. read the page I'm already on, and 3. click more links on the page I'm already on. Say, all the other subpages.

...Are we operating on different definitions of tab here? Because normally when I'm moving tropes I open the editing of both pages in different tabs and copy from the source, click the other tab, and paste it into the new page. Why would I insert notepad in between copying it from the source, getting to the other tab and pasting it?

To be clear on something, I currently have a window open with 425 tabs open from TV Tropes (though most are are unloaded thanks to the bar tab add on). Tabs are essential to my web browsing.

Except it actually didn't. No, you're right-clicking on a link to go to another one, or using a various character key like "ctrl" to do so. It never existed.

"Tabbed Browsing". That was not an option on this site outside of possibly the Preview Button.

Again, are we talking about different things? Virtually every link on the site can be opened in a new tab, except for the ones in the new dropdown menu because they aren't coded in a way that allows it. Right click, Open in New Tab, or click the mousewheel. I just checked my install, IE does it too, and I have done literally nothing with that browser on this computer ever, so that's regular functionality. Every browser I know of has tabbed browsing. Unless this is an issue of completely different interfaces, like touchpads and touch screens and... I dunno, styli? Or maybe different screen sizes. I'm talking about a generic laptoppy size, 15.4 inches. Anything larger should be the same but better, anything smaller the same but worse, and I know nothing about smartphones or tablets. So where are you coming from?

Hold it! None of those apply. Voice of God is referring to an Author or Creator. All of those are life-threatening situations, none of these apply to FE. In fact, none of them are good comparisons either.
Objection! No wait, Raineh already covered this...

No, the point of an analogy is to give something similar to prove a point. Making one with ridiculous reasons that have no bearing on the importance of a thing is pretty close to strawmanning.
Raineh had the gist right. The situations didn't matter- that the people involved were warned is the important part. Forests and trees and seeing.

The point is, you're hating on the guy who gave you all this for free. There's no good reason to at this point. He works very hard, and has to pay for this all. None of what we have to do. Until you pay for it, your complaints, which is really closer to whining than truly legitimate, have no point.
I've answered everything here a lot.

To do quotes, use two brackets each on the side of quoteblock with, a / for the second one. So, [[ quoteblock ]]Text Here[[ /quoteblock ]] Just like that. Clearly, you need to close the brackets. Glad to help. smile
Thank you very much.

@Meophist: Thank you for being a coding wizard, at least to my muggle eyes. You are exactly what I'm talking about when I say that if Fast Eddie ran some of the issues he deals with past the community, it might help ease the burden on him and keep us informed simultaneously (sorry for dragging you into this).

There have been more posts since I started this, but I'm done, dammit. We were two posts from the end of page 10 and that's where I'm stopping. 50 minutes people! I wanted to end the conversation or move from this thread posts ago! *Looks at top of page, below the tvtropes icon* "Oh, good. Westrim is about to settle this thing." *sobs* (Not real sobs, dramatic writing sobs.)

edited 15th Nov '11 1:37:18 AM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#270: Nov 15th 2011 at 1:47:02 AM

He also listened to all those that asked for the old system back. Complaining and constructive criticism are not mutually exclusive.

He only put it back to make sure testing is perfected. He never said it was to stay.

Customer: A party that receives or consumes products (goods or services) and has the ability to choose between different products and suppliers. Plus, we pay with our ad views.

You really don't have the choice to choose as much as you think you do here. Also, the owner has a right to refuse any customer for any reason. That customer is not always right.

I dislike that you dismiss my well supported conclusion as hypothetical and untrue while making an unsupported and actually untrue statement. I did give a view of mine at the end, but that was an expectation of mine, not a hypothesis. The hypothesis was that making people do more work = less traffic.

We've always expected people to work hard here. The easy route wasn't something expected. You put in as much work into the wiki as you want to, after all. You gotta work with what you have. Fact of the matter is, we might lose a few people, but we will easily get more people. We don't lose much if people aren't willing to work with what's there.

By what (to head off the physicists, relevant) definition of work is less of it a bad thing? IT pretty unambiguously is a problem, and you keep making no argument to back your claim that it isn't up.

The more work you do, the more that gets done. The less you work, the less you get. That's kind of how it literally works.

I'm confused as to why the inability of a few to use the best option means no one should have that option. And I was was annoyed by the dropdown menu because it forced me to not open the link in a new tab. And it it's in a new tab, I can 1. not watch it load, 2. read the page I'm already on, and 3. click more links on the page I'm already on. Say, all the other subpages.

Inability? To what, have more convenience? You're really acting like this is a huge deal. Taking a bit more time out in your life won't hurt you in the long run. Once again, this isn't actually needed, but would not be a bad idea at all. I am not saying it doesn't help, but I'm also saying that the requirement doesn't exist for it.

...Are we operating on different definitions of tab here? Because normally when I'm moving tropes I open the editing of both pages in different tabs and copy from the source, click the other tab, and paste it into the new page. Why would I insert notepad in between copying it from the source, getting to the other tab and pasting it?

You copy all the items into Notepad from the Edit Screen. You erase the original content as you do say. Then you copy paste the new items from Notepad into the next page alphabetically. You're really not doing anything different except using one more program. The only thing I see so far that might be a problem(which wouldn't be when copying the url into the new tab anyway, as it accomplishes the exact same scenario, only taking 5 more seconds) is that you don't have Notepad.

To be clear on something, I currently have a window open with 425 tabs open from TV Tropes (though most are are unloaded thanks to the bar tab add on). Tabs are essential to my web browsing.

...And? You're still using the tabs with my method, you just are taking 5 seconds more to do the same thing. Only thing I see that's it's slightly faster, nothing more.

Again, are we talking about different things? Virtually every link on the site can be opened in a new tab, except for the ones in the new dropdown menu because they aren't coded in a way that allows it. Right click, Open in New Tab, or click the mousewheel. I just checked my install, IE does it too, and I have done literally nothing with that browser on this computer ever, so that's regular functionality. Every browser I know of has tabbed browsing.

That's only you're using a mouse with Right-Clicking available. What about a mouse that doesn't use it? Hint: Not every single one actually does. Either way, this isn't a super big deal. Just do a bit more work. If the coding can be done, he'll probably do it. But it's really not high on the agenda anyway.

Also, if you think the situation doesn't matter, then you're not doing the analogy right. The point of an analogy is to show a similar situation. Being warned over something that is not life-threatening isn't comparable. Whether you call it a dick move or not, the job is being done. And we're working on improving it. Instead of going about the whole tabbed browsing thing(and especially the vendetta against FE getting the job done faster), let's work on improving the whole thing instead. If he took the Tabbed Browsing thing into consideration, it'll get done if possible. Until then, there's no more to actually say on it. It's not any requirement at this time, and doesn't really hurt things either.

Quest 64 thread
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#271: Nov 15th 2011 at 2:07:07 AM

Because I'm too lazy to reply to that thing in full: I can name three ways of opening new tabs. Centre mouse wheel button click thing, right click and new tab, ctrl and click. Also, less work = less only holds true if the systems are equally efficient. Greater efficiency can compensate for less work.

Thnikkafan ? from Faroe Islands (not really) Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
?
#272: Nov 15th 2011 at 3:23:23 AM

The more work you do, the more that gets done. The less you work, the less you get. That's kind of how it literally works.

You're completely missing the point, aren't you? Here, I'm going to use an analogy. I know analogies are completely irrelevant in your eyes, but I'll try one anyway. Note that this has nothing to do with the namespace issue and everything to do with showing how stupid that line is.

Say you have a rock that you want to bring to the top of a cliff. There's two options: one is to carry up the perilous pathway along the side of the cliff, and another is to shoot it out of a conveniently-placed cannon. (For the sake of analogy, we're ignoring the work it takes to build the cannon, etc.) Both get the rock to the top of the cliff, however, carrying it up is FAR more work than shooting it from the cannon.

You know, I think you're starting to misinterpret everything that Westrim says for the sake of arguing. I'm just going to stick my Troll Flag in your forehead and walk away from this one.

edited 15th Nov '11 3:23:43 AM by Thnikkafan

Anyone who assigns themselves loads of character tropes is someone to be worried about.
Lirodon Cutie Snark Crusader from Saskatchewan Since: Nov, 2009
Cutie Snark Crusader
#273: Nov 15th 2011 at 5:28:22 AM

What scripting does the hover idea require, though? I know a lot of plug-ins crash, especially on Google Chrome. Specifically java ones. Since those don't work perfectly for everyone, that could easily alienate users.

Most effective cross-platform method would be to use Javascript and J Query. The former is a key part of any modern web browser, and is not considered to be a plugin. In fact, Chrome has one of the best javascript engines.

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#274: Nov 15th 2011 at 7:52:16 AM

Being able to do tabbed browsing has always been supported. I think the folder or tab buttons may be able to stay, now that the layout is less vertical-space consumptive. So now there are two ways to tabbed browse. The link list in the left column and the buttons.

The usefulness of the drop down is primarily in being able to see what non-standard subpages there may be.

I think it would be cool to make the buttons graphically more like folder tabs. That visual trope is a little tired, but still pretty effective. Anyone have the art skilz?

edited 15th Nov '11 7:58:35 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#275: Nov 15th 2011 at 7:56:34 AM

You mean this sort of thing?

-Doesn't have the art skills so just found a picture to illustrate what I meant.-


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