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deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#226: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:06:50 PM

This was informing you of the change, which is the polite thing to do, and the link is gone because it's been there all day, so, if you cared to see what was up, you would have already come to this thread... Now, I say this as neither Fast Eddie or a mod, so nothing I say should be treated as absolute fact. I'm just saying that he did inform everyone of the change. Sure he never put it up to discussion, sure he informed us after the change, but, seriously, seeing the response on this thread, I don't really blame him.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#227: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:12:10 PM

I for one haven't been on Tv Tropes all day, and there are plenty of people who aren't here every day.


If the method works and supports tabbed browsing, that's fine. However, given some time, we should be able to see if it's missing anything, like Trope Overdosed works that have several pages of tropes or characters (not that some should, but whatever). With the old system, it always bugged me that you couldn't go from something like Characters to CMOA, for example, so I hope that's not still a problem.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy
JapaneseTeeth Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing from Meinong's jungle Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
Existence Weighed Against Nonbeing
#228: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:13:55 PM

[up][up]The problem isn't that he didn't tell anyone, it's that he didn't tell anyone until after he had already made the change. The reason reaction was so negative was at least partially because no one had any input in it, and there was no indication that it was even going to happen.

I think Westrim summed it up pretty well; FE doesn't need permission for anything, but it would still have been considerate to at least inform everyone of what was going on before changing things; especially as this affects 99% of those who use the wiki.

I don't care too much about the change itself; once the bugs get worked out I don't think it'll be a problem. It's just that a lot of people are disturbed by the fact such a major change happened completely out of nowhere. I mean, we take the time to get input for stuff like renaming tropes or restructuring how the pages are organized, so everyone was completely blindsided when this just happened with no warning.

edited 14th Nov '11 9:15:55 PM by JapaneseTeeth

Reaction Image Repository
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#229: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:18:04 PM

@deathpigeon: We're not just here to be fed content, we're here to create it- tropes and media pages and entries and policies. We aren't part of the creation process when we're told something after the fact.

Not everyone checks the site every couple of hours. This is an important change, and the people just finding out about it have nowhere to inform then about it now.

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#230: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:20:44 PM

[up][up],[up] Honestly, I feel like he gave us just as much time as we needed, which was none. It wasn't that hard to figure out how it works, it took me ten seconds flat, and it's not like he needs our input, and, once he figured out there were still major kinks, he allowed the other system to ride along with it, even if it's only for now.

20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#231: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:24:07 PM

I decided to mockup the "buttons for important pages, menu for the rest" approach using Comicbook.Green Lantern. Given I put next to no thought to the menu's look(just enough to decide I wasn't in the mood to fiddle with icons), I think it came out pretty good(ignore the now-misplaced review link).

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#232: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:25:48 PM

I must say, that does look pretty good, and seems like a reasonable comprise between the two formats.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#233: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:26:06 PM

Let's clear up something that people tend to forget:

  • Fast Eddie created this site of his own free will and his own money.
  • He has to maintain the coding himself. This also means that doing this is not an easy task.
  • He has never had to discuss changes with anyone. His word is law, something that people just have to accept.

Anyway, this is also severely off-topic, and unless there's problems with the actual system(which there aren't anymore so far), there's no reason to complain. Also, I already explained before that the Tabbed browsing isn't even a problem. Open a tab, copy the url and put it in there. Press back on the original tab. Yes, tabbed browsing is convenient, but not even necessary either. Also, let's note that some people don't use Browsers with Tabbed Browsing anyway. Could be a nice option, but shouldn't be forced.

Quest 64 thread
Bookyangel2438 from New York City Since: Jul, 2011
#234: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:31:51 PM

Is it just me, but with this new silly subpage thing, that the tabs are all screwed up? surprised

Blugh. sad

Alt account of Angeldog 2437.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#235: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:35:26 PM

I wonder if the system would look a little better if the page title and the remaining buttons/links were on the same line, with the buttons either just to the right of the title, or right-shifted on the page.

At the least, it would conserve space.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#236: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:53:46 PM

I'm going to step by step on this:

"Let's clear up something that people tend to forget:" Very few people have forgotten the three points you're about to say, even momentarily.

"He has to maintain the coding himself. This also means that doing this is not an easy task." And one of the things we're saying is we'd like to help. I sure can't code, but I can test functionality, and I'm sure there are are coders who'd be willing to help, just going by Troper Demographics. He can't get what he doesn't ask for, since no one knows what or how to offer.

"He has never had to discuss changes with anyone. His word is law, something that people just have to accept." As many have said, we already accept that, we just want to be informed beforehand. It can be done with consideration and openness.

"Open a tab, copy the url and put it in there. Press back on the original tab." That's four steps for something that was two, with a lot more mouse movement. That's like saying "yeah, this freeway is closed so you can't get there in 1 mile, but you can still get there using these three freeways in only 8 miles!"

"Yes, tabbed browsing is convenient, but not even necessary either." ... To you. There's a reason Internet Explorer dramatically slowed its hemorrhage of users in 2006 when IE 7 came out (okay, two; better security and adding tabbed browsing, the two major reasons people, including me, changed browsers ).

"Also, let's note that some people don't use Browsers with Tabbed Browsing anyway. Could be a nice option, but shouldn't be forced." Some people don't use browsers updated in the past 6 years; that doesn't mean we reduce functionality since they wont use it.

edited 14th Nov '11 9:57:19 PM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#237: Nov 14th 2011 at 9:57:47 PM

Yeah, seven years of rolling out layout changes has taught me that the way to do it is to just do it. Talk about it for weeks before it happens or do it all in one day, makes no difference. The comments will be identical in quality and content.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#238: Nov 14th 2011 at 10:02:37 PM

Talk about it for weeks before it happens or do it all in one day, makes no difference. The comments will be identical in quality and content.

Now this, I can definitely understand. It's not the way I would do things, but this is the internet we're dealing with here, and my gut feeling is that 1) lots of people will be against any change, and 2) a fair share of them will not change their opinions no matter how much advance warning and input they get.

CalamityJane from None of your business Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Robosexual
#239: Nov 14th 2011 at 10:02:39 PM

I'd just like to pop in and say that I DON'T think it's okay for a site that has grown such a large community as this to just take the creator's word as the law and leave it at that, and have him do freaking everything, with or without the consent of the people it affects. That's something that I am not okay with under any circumstances, as it is unfair to have the voice of one guy who just happens to be the guy that made the thing hold more weight than the voices of the thousands of people who use the thing he made in the first place.

But it seems I have little choice but to live with it. Grr.

I wonder if I'm sounding rude, demanding or facetious in any way. Because if I am, please let me know and I'll see if I can reword my statements to be less so.

Please consider supporting my artwork on Patreon
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#240: Nov 14th 2011 at 10:10:30 PM

Even if you don't want input you can still get a few people that you choose to bug test and let us know in advance so that our first indication isn't a mouse cursor groping in empty space. And unless I missed something, as far as I know the drop down menu was meant to replace the old system entirely; because of the feedback you got, we still have the old system of buttons and an additional list on the left which near as I can tell satisfies everyone (it satisfies me) with all that's left to do is some formatting. Because of feedback.

This may be the internet, but there are still people thinking things through and being useful. I'd like to think you think of us tropers as more than just youtube commenters, but actual (minor) partners trying to make this site better too.

edited 14th Nov '11 10:15:56 PM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
Lirodon Cutie Snark Crusader from Saskatchewan Since: Nov, 2009
Cutie Snark Crusader
#241: Nov 14th 2011 at 10:16:26 PM

@Meophist

I kinda agree, this site is one of those "content is good, interface is just a bit awkward/inconsistant"-type sites.

Now, for dealing with this number of subpages, I kinda came up a better idea. This is a rough lineart version, but you get the idea. Essentially, we'd divide up the major subpages into categories (Notes, Media, Opinions, etc.) that would show up as dropdown menus (with icons/everything), consistent for each page. The familiar "badges" for C Mo F/etc. pages will still appear off to the side, as I don't think combining them into a "Noted Moments" submenu would be a good idea.

TheGourdCaptain Since: Jul, 2010
#242: Nov 14th 2011 at 10:18:14 PM

...Seriously, for the five minutes or so I was using this before the buttons were back up, I was vainly trying to find something to middle click on (open in tab). It's how I browse pretty much any site these days. And "copy and paste into another tab" is not much of a solution, IMHO.

Anyway, Fast Eddie's decreed it, hope someone writes a greasemonkey script for tabbable buttons or something.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#243: Nov 14th 2011 at 10:36:44 PM

Very few people have forgotten the three points you're about to say, even momentarily.

Then you have no reason to complain.

This also means that doing this is not an easy task. And one of the things we're saying is we'd like to help. I sure can't code, but I can test functionality, and I'm sure there are are coders who'd be willing to help, just going by Troper Demographics. He can't get what he doesn't ask for, since no one knows what or how to offer.

You're helping testing right now, are you not? He's not doing anything wrong. He's getting it done.

That's four steps for something that was two, with a lot more mouse movement. That's like saying "yeah, this freeway is closed so you can't get there in 1 mile, but you can still get there using these three freeways in only 8 miles!"

Not even close to the same case here. You're not wasting gas. You're not wasting any real time but a few seconds. No, the only reason to complain is that you won't do a bit of extra work for a feature that he made. Laziness is not an excuse here. In fact, I even said it would be a cool feature, but it's not actually needed whatsoever. You're saying it is, which we both know is not true.

... To you. There's a reason Internet Explorer dramatically slowed its hemorrhage of users in 2006 when IE 7 came out (okay, two; better security and adding tabbed browsing, the two major reasons people, including me, changed browsers ).

I use Internet Explorer with tabs all the time. I have never had complaints about it besides forcing me to go to the new tab. It's not anymore slower by a few seconds than it is to have a tab forcefully opened. So now, there's no actual problem. I also use Google Chrome. But that doesn't matter, since the speed is not an issue here as much as you think it is.

Some people don't use browsers updated in the past 6 years; that doesn't mean we reduce functionality since they wont use it.

It does not mean that it's required in any way. Nice feature, but not needed.


So why wouldn't Fast Eddie, the Voice of God here, be able to do what he wants? I mean, you know, he runs the site, maintains the coding, makes the rules... he literally is the voice of god here, is he not? Also, we are testing it right now as we speak. Whether or not he supposedly jumped the gun doesn't matter if it gets done, and glitches get fixed right away. Right now, that's what happened. He doesn't need to ask our permission either, and I don't see a single reason why he has to.

edited 14th Nov '11 10:37:52 PM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#244: Nov 14th 2011 at 11:24:42 PM

I do not know how to format the way you formatted, so I'll keep using quotation marks.

"Then you have no reason to complain." Obviously I do. What you're really asserting is that I have no right to complain, which I have contested.

"You're helping testing right now, are you not? He's not doing anything wrong. He's getting it done." Testing is done before release. This isn't testing, this is customer feedback, and we're more than customers.

"Not even close to the same case here. You're not wasting gas. You're not wasting any real time but a few seconds. No, the only reason to complain is that you won't do a bit of extra work for a feature that he made. Laziness is not an excuse here. In fact, I even said it would be a cool feature, but it's not actually needed whatsoever. You're saying it is, which we both know is not true." This is a bit pointless since they've been restored, but I'll answer. Time adds up, and more importantly, multiple steps get tedious when the sequence needs to be repeated over and over. A few seconds becomes a couple minutes on a page with fifteen subpages that I want to look at all of. It's not lazy to value my time, and it's not an invalid complaint when a new feature takes it.

Tediousness is one of the enemies of good web design. Sites lose 100s of millions in revenue because people don't want to take the tedious step of registering with a website that they're already giving credit card info too=- one extra step of a minute or so done once after the time investment of shopping for the item. And no, I'm not BSing. So it is absolutely true- and don't tell me what I know. If it hadn't been restored, I would be seriously surprised if traffic to subpages hadn't been reduced dramatically.

"I use Internet Explorer with tabs all the time. I have never had complaints about it besides forcing me to go to the new tab. It's not anymore slower by a few seconds than it is to have a tab forcefully opened. So now, there's no actual problem. I also use Google Chrome. But that doesn't matter, since the speed is not an issue here as much as you think it is." missedthepoint.jpg. I wasn't complaining about IE- I rather like the current version (my add ons chain me to Firefox.) I was noting the two major reasons I have seen, both anecdotal and polled, that people switched. Considering how much people want higher internet speeds and how much attention is paid by tech sites to the loading time of pages for each browser, I'm very sure you're wrong about speed for the majority of users.

And I don't get refocused to the new tab ever, so maybe that's the difference for our different perceptions. You can change that setting, you know.

"It does not mean that it's required in any way. Nice feature, but not needed." Nice feature that already existed. And as said concerning speed repeatedly, absolutely needed.

"So why wouldn't Fast Eddie, the Voice of God here, be able to do what he wants? I mean, you know, he runs the site, maintains the coding, makes the rules... he literally is the voice of god here, is he not? Also, we are testing it right now as we speak. Whether or not he supposedly jumped the gun doesn't matter if it gets done, and glitches get fixed right away. Right now, that's what happened. He doesn't need to ask our permission either, and I don't see a single reason why he has to." I've answered all of this before, but I do have something new. Since we're going with God analogies here, we'd probably consider Him to be technically in the right (considering he created everything), but still very not cool if he didn't:

  • Warn Jesus he was gonna die.
  • Being Jesus, warn the disciples of various things.
  • Warn Noah that the flood was coming.
  • Etc, even though, being God, he knew exactly what was gonna happen: "Yeah, seven years of rolling out layout changes has taught me that the way to do it is to just do it. Talk about it for weeks before it happens or do it all in one day, makes no difference. The comments will be identical in quality and content." He still warned people. And all the disciples still did the things Jesus warned them of.

Or maybe I'm taking those all out of context or citing them badly. I dunno, I think the Guy is still a genocidal dick if he exists and it's been a decade since I did my readthrough of that particular book. But at least he tended to warn people.

Considering this started because of a post you made in which you noted this was all off topic, I find it odd we're still discussing it here. Feel free to move it all to a new thread, PM me with any responses you have, or ignore my response (I'd prefer the third one, it'd save me time.)

edited 14th Nov '11 11:30:51 PM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#245: Nov 14th 2011 at 11:40:17 PM

Obviously I do. What you're really asserting is that I have no right to complain, which I have contested.

Yeah, about that... complaining isn't wanted here. Constructive criticism is.

Testing is done before release. This isn't testing, this is customer feedback, and we're more than customers.

We're not paying for anything. We're testing it. In order for us to be actual customers, we need to deel out money. This isn't the case, so yes, we're the testers.

This is a bit pointless since they've been restored, but I'll answer. Time adds up, and more importantly, multiple steps get tedious when the sequence needs to be repeated over and over. A few seconds becomes a couple minutes on a page with fifteen subpages that I want to look at all of. It's not lazy to value my time, and it's not an invalid complaint when a new feature takes it.

Tediousness is one of the enemies of good web design. Sites lose 100s of millions in revenue because people don't want to take the tedious step of registering with a website that they're already giving credit card info two- one extra step of a minute or so done once after the time investment of shopping for the item. If it hadn't been restored, I would be seriously surprised if traffic to subpages hadn't been reduced dramatically.

And no, I'm not B Sing.

You're not wasting any actual time. Those seconds won't add up unless you're looking at a ton of pages, which they would've added up in the first place, now wouldn't it?

Also, none of your second paragraph has any weighing in here since you're not doing any of that. We're not going to lose traffic at all. This is no different from before we had icons. You could click on them all the same. Your situation is beyond hypothetical and just not true.

missedthepoint.jpg. I wasn't complaining about IE, I rather like the current version (my addons chain me to firefox.) I was noting the two major reason, I have seen, both anecdotal and polled, that people switched. Considering how much people want higher internet speeds and how much attention is paid by tech sites to the loading time of pages for each browser, I'm very sure you're wrong about speed for the majority of users. And I don't get refocused to the new tab ever, so maybe that's the difference for our different perceptions. You can change that setting, you know.

And none of this makes a difference if nobody does it. Not everybody chooses the best option, maybe because they're using an older computer that can't? As long as it's strictly an option and not forced, it's not a problem. Likewise, it's still not needed as an option anyway. Nobody's forcing you to read it in a new tab. In fact, it's just as fast to go to the page, and read through it as is. Only thing I can see is moving tropes, and I use Notepad myself for that, since it's faster than tabbing.

Nice feature that already existed. And as said concerning speed repeatedly, absolutely needed.

Except it actually didn't. No, you're right-clicking on a link to go to another one, or using a various character key like "ctrl" to do so. It never existed.

I've answered all of this before, but I do have something new. Since we're going with God analogies here, we'd probably consider Him to be technically in the right (considering he created everything), but still very not cool if he didn't: Warn Jesus he was gonna die. Being Jesus, warn the disciples of various things. Warn Noah that the flood was coming. Etc, even though, being God, he knew exactly what was gonna happen: "Yeah, seven years of rolling out layout changes has taught me that the way to do it is to just do it. Talk about it for weeks before it happens or do it all in one day, makes no difference. The comments will be identical in quality and content." He still warned people. And all the disciples still did the things Jesus warned them of.

Hold it! None of those apply. Voice of God is referring to an Author or Creator. All of those are life-threatening situations, none of these apply to FE. In fact, none of them are good comparisons either.

If you can show a website with the same problem, then your analogy would have some merit. Until then, it's pretty much not even close.


The point is, you're hating on the guy who gave you all this for free. There's no good reason to at this point. He works very hard, and has to pay for this all. None of what we have to do. Until you pay for it, your complaints, which is really closer to whining than truly legitimate, have no point.

To do quotes, use two brackets each on the side of quoteblock with, a / for the second one. So, [[ quoteblock ]]Text Here[[ /quoteblock ]] Just like that. Clearly, you need to close the brackets. Glad to help. smile

edited 15th Nov '11 12:32:18 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#246: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:10:22 AM

Hmm, I swear I saw something around here that said there'll never be a quote button because a 'quote' -text- 'quote' -text- structure too easily leads to trolling.

  1. Complaining isn't wanted, criticism or not: obviously, it is, Eddie has made the thread and has changed things based on it.
  2. 'Customers' has a broader definition than 'pays money for'. Still, if we're end-users—and, most of the time, we're certainly end-users of the wiki's formatting and such—it's nice to not randomly get thrown into a beta of something.
  3. Uh-huh... so, not wanting to go through half a dozen steps just to copy and paste one line from Main/ to YMMV/ is wasteful? That's one use of tabbed browsing. Making it harder to move incorrectly placed tropes helps no-one. And, before you say anything, it is harder. Compared to one click for a new tab, something that requires (at a minimum, and unless you're running some versions of linux, I think) three clicks and... seven keypresses* is going to be harder.
  4. You find notepad faster. Other people would find copying from the page directly faster than opening another program and switching between the two. The thing is, you still have the choice to do the latter. Imagine if you had to root through a byzantine file directory to open it every time. As for 'nobody doing it', what evidence have you got that this isn't the case? If there's nothing for or against, don't make judgements and loudly repeat them.
  5. What never existed? The ability to click with a third mouse button on a hyperlink/picture? Amazing, I've been doing the impossible all these years.
  6. Do you actually understand the point of an analogy? It's not meant to be a word-for-word description of a situation. And with the gist of it being 'it doesn't matter so much if these things are done so long as they're not done without warning because that's nicer'.

Damn it, I got caught up in arguing again...

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#247: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:21:26 AM

1: That was constructive criticism that he listened to. The only thing he's done with the complaining is said that he specifically got it done the fast way. Which means he's not interested in listening to "you should've discussed it first", and there's still no reason for him to be.

2: Tell that to Sonic 2006. Fact of the matter is, once again, you're saying that we had the right to be discussed with. That was never in the Privacy Policy for this site. He can do what he wants with it.

3: So doing a bit more work is actually a problem now? Oh, wait... it's not. Once again, it's a nice feature, but only that. It's convenient, but not outright needed. There's a difference here.

4: That's regardless of the point. The fact that you aren't taking the time to do it right with whatever means you have possible does not mean FE is required to give you the easiest way to do things. Nobody is.

5: "Tabbed Browsing". That was not an option on this site outside of possibly the Preview Button.

6: No, the point of an analogy is to give something similar to prove a point. Making one with ridiculous reasons that have no bearing on the importance of a thing is pretty close to strawmanning.

Quest 64 thread
Meophist from Toronto, Canada Since: May, 2010
#248: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:24:38 AM

So, this is the sort of thing I was talking about:
Okay, this link.

If one loads this text up as HTML, they should see. Hover over to see the list and then one can click on the subpage they want. It should be fairly easy to style them, turn them into plain-text links, and to add images. I'm not quite sure how well it'll interact with smart phones and the such though.

Edit: Darn escapes. Let me see if I could do something...

Edit 2:Done.

edited 15th Nov '11 12:29:59 AM by Meophist

Helpful Scripts and Stylesheets here.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#249: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:29:07 AM

In answer to the constructive criticism thing: read your own post, the one before that. You're contradicting yourself. Now, as for its not being necessary, and I've said this before: the site would retain full functionality with plain text and hyperlinks. That does not make it pleasant or particularly kind thing to reduce functionality to that.

As for tabbed browsing not being a feature, that would be because tabs are part of the browser, obviously. It's not something you can stop, though it's irritating when it's made more difficult.

edited 15th Nov '11 12:32:12 AM by RainehDaze

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#250: Nov 15th 2011 at 12:34:32 AM

If the site only used full text without pictures and various coding, you'd have a point. But it doesn't.

Pictures are key to the site, as are the adverts that pay for the site. There's no reason to make it pure text. If that's what you mean.

And that was a typo up there.

So no, I don't see anything more than being "slightly more convenient" as any real reason. If he can code it, he will, otherwise, nothing of value was actually lost. Being slightly harder just isn't a good reason either. If you have to do a bit more work, once again, there's no REAL problem here.

Once again, these are free features that he's being kind in giving to you. There's a difference between wanting tabbed browsing and complaining it's not an option. It just happens to be the latter than people are having problem with, not the former.

edited 15th Nov '11 12:36:49 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread

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