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There is no question that the moral and economic philosophies that are at the core of the Eurozone's current fiscal problems originated in and are being marketed by Germany. There is no question that Germany is the big winner in the Eurozone by virtue of its ability to maintain a trade surplus and avoid the inflation that ought to result from it. There is no doubt that its economic practices are impoverishing its neighbors above and beyond any "cultural or political deficiencies" that may exist.
The insistence on viewing this as a matter of moral rectitude is exactly the problem. It's not a moral issue; it's an issue of mathematical reality.
Let me be perfectly frank: I don't live in Europe, and my daily life and individual prosperity are not intimately connected to anything going on in Europe. I don't have a horse in this race. So when I look at the facts and tell you that Germany is screwing over the rest of Europe, I have no preexisting bias that is compelling me to take sides.
edited 21st Aug '15 7:52:05 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"I usually only lurk in this thread, rarely posting (since I don't understand much about macroeconomics), but I do think this thread is veering a bit into senseless German bashing, and this is from someone who disagrees with how Germany/France dealt with Greece.
Honestly, I'd blame more the weakness of the EU as a regulatory institution than the countries & politicians that have benefited from said weakness.
In the end Germany may be the big benefiter of a lot of this but it's far from the only one. French banks also engaged in reckless lending and are refusing to take a hair cut, a lot of other countries in north and Eastern Europe agree with the economic policy of "beatings will continue until moral improves". The Greek people themselves need to shoulder some responsibility for being unwilling to eithe quit or fall in line and instead trying to find a middle ground that's clearly not there.
Now I'm curious on one thing though, the limits on the ECB carrying out QE due to a fear of inflation. Who are the non-German backers of that? Because the irrational fear of inflation is purely a German thing from what I've seen, but I could be wrong
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranI'd have to more or less agree with the folks who say there's a wee bit too much German bashing going on in this thread. But of course that seems to be a thimble's worth to the overall USA bashing mood.
Oh yeah sure, Germany somehow managed to get Europe to buy buy buy its products. But it's the USA who's usually considered the biggest bully country in the world, even though China is doing its damnest to take that title.
Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.@Fighteer
Perhaps, but it is obvious that you have little knowledge about European politics (I don't blame you for that, since I don't think I am more knowledgeable about domestic American politics) and that you are buying into simplifying reports about the reasons for austerity. You also tend to exaggerate things e.g. a "humanitarian crisis" in Greece.
Of course this might be down to a problem regarding the media coverage about the crisis. I've noticed that quite a lot of English newspapers tend to underplay the Greek responsibility for their problems and focus more on their suffering, while in Germany (and as a Slowenian colleague of mine told me, also in e.g. Slovakia) focused more on those aspects.
Btw. I don't think Southern Europe qualifies as Germany's neighbours. We haven't anschlussed Austria yet.
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The burden of leadership. It doesn't matter what you do, you'll be open for criticism. As some German newspapers noticed, German politician still need to get used to this fact.
Btw. sometimes I wonder if some of you are actively trying to ignore my statements when in order to use certain topoi like "irrational fear of inflation." I've pointed out quite a few times that Germans have very good reasons to dislike inflation (and no, not because of the hyperinflation in Weimar) and that it is in our national economic interest to curb inflation.
As for what hinders the ECB of pursuing a policy of high inflations, well, for instance this is actually one of their founding principles and because countries like Austria, Germany and Finland (others too, but I'll have to check who because i do not want to make false statements) are against it. That should suffice as justification.
edited 21st Aug '15 9:18:46 AM by Zarastro
China is far far from on topic people.
It's explanation, it's also political justification for why it happened, it doesn't provide economic justification though.
I admit though I have a chip on my shoulder on this point, I'm of a generation that are suffering massively because of a refusal by retired and middle aged folks to allow any kind of economic policy that will hurt either their nest eggs or their investment in the housing market.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranThe stupid part being that they don't realize that these policies really just benefit the 1%. The whole "inflation hurts the retirees!" statement is bunk, unless they have a defined benefit plan and we have absolute runaway inflation. If they have a stock-invested retirement, well, that sorts inflation. Inflation also doesn't hurt real estate investment.
Syriza rebels form Popular Unity party ahead of election.
Moderate left wing. That's what SYRIZAnote has always, for the most part, been. I could never understand why foreign media picked up the whole "redical x-treme sucialistz!!1!!1!" meme.
These guys (Popular Unity) are the closest thing you get to "radical left" within SYRIZA. Putting in in quote marks because they are still pretty tame compared to, say, ANTARSYA
.
edited 21st Aug '15 1:04:17 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
So, they are basically Greece's new social democrats after PASOK went down.
I guess Popular Unity will become the Greek counterpart to our Die Linke
.
In so many words, yes. Tsipras has even been accused of mimicking Andreas Papandreou
in many aspects.
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
EDIT: Also, "The Left". I like that name. Simplistic, unpretentious and straight-to-the-point. I rarity among the European left
edited 21st Aug '15 1:15:10 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.That sorry-ass dickhead... He tried to make a comeback
but it, eh, fell short.
edited 21st Aug '15 1:20:54 PM by LogoP
It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.It seems like Greece is flailing to find a coherent political voice amid all this chaos.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"And last I checked, the Democrats are basically a Center/Center-Right party along the rest of the international scale.
With one main exception: many of the "left-wing" parties throughout Europe have bought into fixed-currency, austerity mania, whereas the Democratic party in the U.S. continues to reject it and advocate broadly Keynesian methods.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Personally, no. I do not.
My knowledge of the euro zone can be summarized in the handful of polandball things I have seen, and that ubiquitous blue and starred flag, and also that they use the euro and that is it, which is why I am so blatantly ignorant on the subject and asking stupid questions.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes