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Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#4251: Aug 21st 2015 at 7:46:18 AM

You guys know that there are other countries pressuring Greece besides Germany, right?

Personally, no. I do not.

My knowledge of the euro zone can be summarized in the handful of polandball things I have seen, and that ubiquitous blue and starred flag, and also that they use the euro and that is it, which is why I am so blatantly ignorant on the subject and asking stupid questions.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4252: Aug 21st 2015 at 7:51:16 AM

[up][up] There is no question that the moral and economic philosophies that are at the core of the Eurozone's current fiscal problems originated in and are being marketed by Germany. There is no question that Germany is the big winner in the Eurozone by virtue of its ability to maintain a trade surplus and avoid the inflation that ought to result from it. There is no doubt that its economic practices are impoverishing its neighbors above and beyond any "cultural or political deficiencies" that may exist.

The insistence on viewing this as a matter of moral rectitude is exactly the problem. It's not a moral issue; it's an issue of mathematical reality.

Let me be perfectly frank: I don't live in Europe, and my daily life and individual prosperity are not intimately connected to anything going on in Europe. I don't have a horse in this race. So when I look at the facts and tell you that Germany is screwing over the rest of Europe, I have no preexisting bias that is compelling me to take sides.

edited 21st Aug '15 7:52:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#4253: Aug 21st 2015 at 8:03:02 AM

I usually only lurk in this thread, rarely posting (since I don't understand much about macroeconomics), but I do think this thread is veering a bit into senseless German bashing, and this is from someone who disagrees with how Germany/France dealt with Greece.

Honestly, I'd blame more the weakness of the EU as a regulatory institution than the countries & politicians that have benefited from said weakness.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#4254: Aug 21st 2015 at 8:26:09 AM

In the end Germany may be the big benefiter of a lot of this but it's far from the only one. French banks also engaged in reckless lending and are refusing to take a hair cut, a lot of other countries in north and Eastern Europe agree with the economic policy of "beatings will continue until moral improves". The Greek people themselves need to shoulder some responsibility for being unwilling to eithe quit or fall in line and instead trying to find a middle ground that's clearly not there.

Now I'm curious on one thing though, the limits on the ECB carrying out QE due to a fear of inflation. Who are the non-German backers of that? Because the irrational fear of inflation is purely a German thing from what I've seen, but I could be wrong

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#4255: Aug 21st 2015 at 8:58:45 AM

I'd have to more or less agree with the folks who say there's a wee bit too much German bashing going on in this thread. But of course that seems to be a thimble's worth to the overall USA bashing mood.

Oh yeah sure, Germany somehow managed to get Europe to buy buy buy its products. But it's the USA who's usually considered the biggest bully country in the world, even though China is doing its damnest to take that title.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
GrandPrincePaulII Imperial knight from Western Eurasia Since: Oct, 2010
Imperial knight
#4256: Aug 21st 2015 at 9:01:17 AM

[up]

Since when does China "bully" on a global scale?

Lazy and pathetic.
probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#4257: Aug 21st 2015 at 9:05:41 AM

[up] By taking on the biggest bully in cyberspace, currency wars, also in corn wars.

There's also other ways, but those three are on the top of my brain currently.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4258: Aug 21st 2015 at 9:09:36 AM

@Fighteer

Perhaps, but it is obvious that you have little knowledge about European politics (I don't blame you for that, since I don't think I am more knowledgeable about domestic American politics) and that you are buying into simplifying reports about the reasons for austerity. You also tend to exaggerate things e.g. a "humanitarian crisis" in Greece.

Of course this might be down to a problem regarding the media coverage about the crisis. I've noticed that quite a lot of English newspapers tend to underplay the Greek responsibility for their problems and focus more on their suffering, while in Germany (and as a Slowenian colleague of mine told me, also in e.g. Slovakia) focused more on those aspects.

Btw. I don't think Southern Europe qualifies as Germany's neighbours. We haven't anschlussed Austria yet.

[up][up][up] The burden of leadership. It doesn't matter what you do, you'll be open for criticism. As some German newspapers noticed, German politician still need to get used to this fact.

Btw. sometimes I wonder if some of you are actively trying to ignore my statements when in order to use certain topoi like "irrational fear of inflation." I've pointed out quite a few times that Germans have very good reasons to dislike inflation (and no, not because of the hyperinflation in Weimar) and that it is in our national economic interest to curb inflation.

As for what hinders the ECB of pursuing a policy of high inflations, well, for instance this is actually one of their founding principles and because countries like Austria, Germany and Finland (others too, but I'll have to check who because i do not want to make false statements) are against it. That should suffice as justification.

edited 21st Aug '15 9:18:46 AM by Zarastro

GrandPrincePaulII Imperial knight from Western Eurasia Since: Oct, 2010
Imperial knight
#4259: Aug 21st 2015 at 9:15:44 AM

[up][up]

How did China bully you with its currency? tongue Wasn't the devaluation of the renminbi asked by the IMF?

Lazy and pathetic.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#4260: Aug 21st 2015 at 9:19:08 AM

The Eastern European politicians are merely starry-eyed (and in the midst of a generation-long reaction to anything that looks or smells mildly socialist), delusions of a different sort, but they'd fall into line if France and Germany started demanding sane fiscal policy.

GrandPrincePaulII Imperial knight from Western Eurasia Since: Oct, 2010
Imperial knight
#4261: Aug 21st 2015 at 9:30:21 AM

[up]

The more changes, the more stays the same. [lol]

Lazy and pathetic.
probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#4262: Aug 21st 2015 at 9:32:18 AM

[up][up][up] Oh, we pretty much blame China for why the PHP lost value against the USD recently.

Some of my family are in imports, and I've had to remind them its good overall if the Philippines imported less.

edited 21st Aug '15 9:32:38 AM by probablyinsane

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#4263: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:55:16 AM

China is far far from on topic people.

As for what hinders the ECB of pursuing a policy of high inflations, well, for instance this is actually one of their founding principles and because countries like Austria, Germany and Finland (others too, but I'll have to check who because i do not want to make false statements) are against it. That should suffice as justification.

It's explanation, it's also political justification for why it happened, it doesn't provide economic justification though.

I admit though I have a chip on my shoulder on this point, I'm of a generation that are suffering massively because of a refusal by retired and middle aged folks to allow any kind of economic policy that will hurt either their nest eggs or their investment in the housing market.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#4264: Aug 21st 2015 at 11:10:23 AM

The stupid part being that they don't realize that these policies really just benefit the 1%. The whole "inflation hurts the retirees!" statement is bunk, unless they have a defined benefit plan and we have absolute runaway inflation. If they have a stock-invested retirement, well, that sorts inflation. Inflation also doesn't hurt real estate investment.

LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#4265: Aug 21st 2015 at 12:16:01 PM

Syriza rebels form Popular Unity party ahead of election.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#4266: Aug 21st 2015 at 12:24:48 PM

This will be the acid test, especially if center-Syriza gets a plurality but then has to caucus with, say, the New Democrats to form a government.

GrandPrincePaulII Imperial knight from Western Eurasia Since: Oct, 2010
Imperial knight
#4267: Aug 21st 2015 at 12:46:52 PM

[up][up]

What does the current Syriza stands for without its left wing?

Lazy and pathetic.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#4268: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:03:21 PM

[up] Moderate left wing. That's what SYRIZAnote  has always, for the most part, been. I could never understand why foreign media picked up the whole "redical x-treme sucialistz!!1!!1!" meme.

These guys (Popular Unity) are the closest thing you get to "radical left" within SYRIZA. Putting in in quote marks because they are still pretty tame compared to, say, ANTARSYA.

edited 21st Aug '15 1:04:17 PM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
GrandPrincePaulII Imperial knight from Western Eurasia Since: Oct, 2010
Imperial knight
#4269: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:09:17 PM

[up]

So, they are basically Greece's new social democrats after PASOK went down. I guess Popular Unity will become the Greek counterpart to our Die Linke.

Lazy and pathetic.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#4270: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:13:45 PM

In so many words, yes. Tsipras has even been accused of mimicking Andreas Papandreou in many aspects.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

EDIT: Also, "The Left". I like that name. Simplistic, unpretentious and straight-to-the-point. I rarity among the European left tongue

edited 21st Aug '15 1:15:10 PM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#4271: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:16:35 PM

Papandreou is back too, I hear....

LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#4272: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:20:22 PM

That sorry-ass dickhead... He tried to make a comeback but it, eh, fell short.

edited 21st Aug '15 1:20:54 PM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4273: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:43:37 PM

It seems like Greece is flailing to find a coherent political voice amid all this chaos.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#4274: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:59:25 PM

I could never understand why foreign media picked up the whole "redical x-treme sucialistz!!1!!1!" meme.
In the US, any left of the Democrats are "RADICAL X-TREME COMMUINISM PEOPLE".

And last I checked, the Democrats are basically a Center/Center-Right party along the rest of the international scale.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4275: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:01:47 PM

With one main exception: many of the "left-wing" parties throughout Europe have bought into fixed-currency, austerity mania, whereas the Democratic party in the U.S. continues to reject it and advocate broadly Keynesian methods.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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