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C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#76: Dec 18th 2011 at 10:15:55 AM

[up] Sorry dude but the in my view qualifies as a twat. There's a lot of self hype around himself, I'm convinced his own self promotion is a partial reason for his sucsess. Has a one sided feud with Alan Moore stemming mainly from the one comment that he thought that Arkham Asylum book wasn't very good. Also I think he's said some pretty out of line stuff about Mark Millar, but people always let him off because Millar's an even bigger douche. And also forget that for a while those two were friends, and I'm pretty sure Millar was basically the same person before the feud. Miller is of course a hundred times worse than the two of them (and Moore while I'm at it) put together, I'm definately not going to defend him as a person.

As for you obviously talking about now, in my view it would have made more sense to talk about all time. I see at more like comparing Justin Beiber to the Rolling Stones.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
JusticeMan You complete me. from Maryland ! Since: Mar, 2011
You complete me.
#77: Dec 18th 2011 at 11:04:20 AM

Miller has two good books (TDKR and Batman Year One) some decent stuff (300 Sin City) and a WHOLE lot of crap (Holly Terror, ASBAR, whatever the hell DK 2 was...). Morrison has hit it out the park numerous times and even when he has some works that aren't as universally loved (Final Crisis) he always gets the gold and the worst he's done was New X-Men. And ignoring the blatant Hate Dumb of Beiber, a better comparison would be between Ice Cube and Lupe Fiasco.

Likewise if I have to invoke Internet law here, pics or it doesn't happen. Ripping on a douche is always okay, and unless you have him saying anything really arrogant first person experiences and the like means your view of his "arrogance" means twat.

Let's make a TCG!
C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#78: Dec 18th 2011 at 6:22:48 PM

[up] The full interview from the Grant Morrison: Comics Death Spiral thread has some of what I'm talking about.

1. Criticism of Alan Moore. To be fair it's a pretty valid criticism in this one, but he takes a shot at the guy in about every other interview.

2. Criticises the guy who wrote the storyline where Sue Dinby was raped. Not just the storyline, but he tries to imply that writing that would make him a mysoginist even while he seems like a nice guy in real life.

3. Millar. Says he'd like to run the guy over. I find that a pretty harsh comment even for a joke. Also tries to take credit for being responsible for the good stuff in Millar's work whilst they were still friends. Millar's early stuff is some of his better acclaimed, something Morrison well knows. Even on the off chance that what he's saying is actually true, I think there are other reasons for Millar's decline, it's a pretty dick move to announce it in an interview.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
silver2195 Since: Jan, 2001
#79: Dec 18th 2011 at 6:26:45 PM

I think Morrison and Moore don't get along because they're too much alike.

Currently taking a break from the site. See my user page for more information.
Ronnie Respect the Red Right Hand from Surrounded by Idiots Since: Jan, 2001
Respect the Red Right Hand
#80: Dec 19th 2011 at 7:36:38 AM

[up][up] Good on him. Alan Moore is not God, nor is the the best thing since sliced bread. Which is a good bit of the reason I'm glad to see the DC Nu bring Barbara out of retirement. Screw Alan Moore and what his sort of writing begat.

JusticeMan You complete me. from Maryland ! Since: Mar, 2011
You complete me.
#81: Dec 19th 2011 at 9:15:37 AM

But Alan Moore never did start the so-called "Dark Age" that's a misconception that people make because the early Modern Age of comics was dominated by people superficially aping his style, then Image and Liefeld got ahold of it, and the rest is history.

In any case, point 1 and 2 aren't the best qualities but they wouldn't strike me as arrogant, and as for 3, well FM deserves it, seriously fuck that guy. And you though that comment was to far? Sheltered much?

Let's make a TCG!
TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#82: Dec 20th 2011 at 7:44:45 AM

Hold on. Are we talking about Mark Millar or Frank Miller? Those are two different people, even if they have bad reputations. Honestly, it's as if having your last name as "Miller" is guaranteed to make you a hated person in the comic book industry!

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
Ronnie Respect the Red Right Hand from Surrounded by Idiots Since: Jan, 2001
Respect the Red Right Hand
#83: Dec 20th 2011 at 8:14:27 AM

[up][up] It's generally agreed that Watchmen, whatever your thoughts on it, started the Dark Age Of Comics and that yes, people piggybacking it (thus 'what his sort of writing begat') proliferated the Dark Age attitude. So yeah, I blame Mr. Moore heavily.

JusticeMan You complete me. from Maryland ! Since: Mar, 2011
You complete me.
#84: Dec 20th 2011 at 8:28:34 AM

But he had nothing to do with it and the piggybacks shared only a cursory similarity to him. It'd be like blaming Pixar for Video Brinquedo.

edited 20th Dec '11 8:29:41 AM by JusticeMan

Let's make a TCG!
C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#85: Dec 20th 2011 at 1:27:37 PM

[up] Agree with this. I kind of see the dark age as being regarded too negatively anyway. Lots of comics were able to effectively make themselves darker and edgier, quite a bit of good stuff came about it. The problem that it was forced on a lot of series and/or creators who weren't suited too it, but you could say that for a lot of trends in comics.

As for Morrison, can we agree to disagree? It's not that I haven't got more evidence or counterarguments, but I just don't paticularly enjoy extended conversations about how I dislike someone, especially when it moves away from their work and onto their personality. And I don't really think Morrisons a bad person, my main problem is the ratio of hype he gives his own work, criticism of other's work and praise of other's work.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#86: Dec 20th 2011 at 4:12:43 PM

Can't blame Alan Moore or Frank Miller for the "dark age of comic books". Alan Moore, doesn't hate superheroes, did not expect people to like his knockoff of The Question and hates the dark age that he inspired. He declared his innocence.

Frank Miller wasn't out to artificially inflate sales with holographic covers and relaunches at issue one, his year one came long after the fact thank you. Miller used the source material or made is own(Robocop) he didn't start a company founded on expies and eratzes then claim it was original like Image. If the dark age had really emulated Moore and Miller it wouldn't have been a dark age but they just superficially copied the "adult" material and ineptly marketed it.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
C0mraid from Here and there Since: Aug, 2010
#87: Dec 20th 2011 at 5:57:08 PM

[up] I've always seen the multiple cover merchandising to be a separate problem from the dark age. The things that caused the comic book crash happened during the dark age, but it wasn't caused or related to it. They both negatively impacted on the quality of many comics but they aren't truly connected.

Am I a good man or a bad man?
TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#88: Dec 21st 2011 at 4:41:09 PM

What I find funny is how Frank Miller claimed that All Star Batman And Robin was a Stealth Parody - after the backlash that ensued soon after its release!

Personally, I don't believe his claim. I think it was just a cover-his-@$$ attempt on his part. I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way!

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
AtomJames I need a drink Since: Apr, 2010
I need a drink
#89: Dec 21st 2011 at 4:58:15 PM

To me that was as valid as Tommy Wiseau's attempt to convince us that The Room was a comedy.

Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.
Severen Since: May, 2010
#90: Jan 19th 2012 at 6:32:29 PM

It seems that this forum has done little more than attract Frank Miller-bashers. Well, no more. I'm certainly in a very small minority here, but I don't care.

Frank is one of my favorite writers, and has been for years. We have very similar interests - love for things like film noir, detective stories, etc. He's clearly very influenced by these works, and has openly stated his love for authors like Raymond Chandler. And even then, he's more than capable of writing outside of that genre. Big Guy and Rusty and the Martha Washington books come to mind.

Personally, I'm disturbed (and disgusted) by the people who claim to know everything about his morals or mental state just by reading his books. Claims that his works are "fascist" hold no more water than claims that works like Dirty Harry or 24 are fascistic (in other words, no water at all). If any of you bothered to do any research, you'd see that Miller's views vary from issue to issue. Most of his views seem inspired by Ayn Rand's works, and he's admitted that he's a fan. He's also a staunch atheist, and shows no sign of having an social conservative views, so I don't think you can call him a conservative of any kind.

As for his views on foreign policy and religion, I'm not disturbed at all. Probably because I agree with him for the most part. His views seem much more in line with those of the late Christopher Hitchens than anyone at Fox News. Yes, he dislikes Islam, but he has shown little more than utter disdain for any organized religion. As I said before, he's an atheist, so there's nothing hypocritical about his views. Contrary to what some idiots say, there is nothing "racist" about hating a religion. Religion is not race, and, thus, is not above massive criticism.

Which brings me to Holy Terror. I liked it (go ahead and burn me at the stake in your minds if you wish). It's drawn in the Sin City style, which I love. I liked the story, and I agreed with the message. He was right to dedicate such a work to Theo Van Gogh. I was disappointed that it ended so abruptly, because a lot more could have been done with the work. And as for it being propaganda, so what? At least he admits it, unlike someone like Michael Moore, who claims his works are anything but propaganda. And, since I agree with him, no foul.

There is nothing "racist" about this work. It's a call for action against religious fanaticism. And even then, Miller has gone out of his way to say that he isn't implicating all practitioners of Islam with this book. He once said (in a quote often taken out of context) that, despite growing up in a Catholic family, there's a lot about Catholicism that he doesn't know, because he doesn't care for the religion; however, he doesn't need to know everything about Catholicism to know why events like the Spanish Inquisition happened. By the same token, he said, he didn't need to know every little thing about Islam to know that groups like Al Queda are a threat to society. He may very well have little (if any) respect for Islam, but what's wrong with that? I expect nothing less from non-believers like him (and myself, for that matter).

I will say this, though: from my point of view, Holy Terror is far less offensive to Islam than Preacher is to Christianity. Make of that what you will.

I have no time for people who claim to know that he is a racist, misogynist, fascist manchild just by reading his works. I've read his works, and have found nothing of the sort. Depiction of prostitutes (which happens primarily in only one of his works) is not misogyny. Portraying vigilantes as heroic is not fascism. And criticizing a massive organized religion is not racist.

I look forward to any of Frank's works, and reserve the right to enjoy them regardless of any consensus or majority opinion, as well as to defend him and myself from any baseless accusations of prejudice. Good day.

Keep drawing, Frank.

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#91: Jan 19th 2012 at 7:05:05 PM

It's interesting how this thread has turned into a grilling of Frank Miller's morality, or lack thereof, in his comics. Very few creators generate this much heat.

The problem with The Dark Age Of Comic Books isn't Alan Moore, it's the writers that came after him that tried to imitate Watchmen without understanding what made it so daring and groundbreaking. That would be like blaming Rockstar for all of the GTA ripoffs.

Do not obey in advance.
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#92: Jan 19th 2012 at 8:47:04 PM

300 is racist, even if only on accident since Miller saw fit to fill the Persian Army full of the non white races that weren't in it. The Greeks knew the difference as well as we do today, if they were fighting black men and ninjas they would have depicted them correctly. But 300 for some reason, thought the mainly white Persian Army wasn't cool enough or something.

I thought 300 was an entertaining work but understand why people call it racist and I'm not out to make excuses for it. Persia was a large empire, they probably could have filled an army with blacks and ninjas if they wanted to(but they didn't). Maybe if Miller didn't decide to depict a real battle and just did a "What If" people would be less offended(probably not). Would people be as offended if some battle the United States fought in like Vietnam had a force made up primarily of blacks, various Indian tribes and non white looking "Latinos" in a comic? Maybe not but if they were also deformed, mindless mutants(more the movie's doing) then it would.

I think 300 was entertaining if you ignore most of your good sense. Especially watching the movie. Just appreciate the flashy battles and the stuff Miller got right. Also, I have no love for Preacher. Beyond the usual Sadly Mythtaken(Christianity gets that a lot for some reason), I didn't find it interesting enough to even stick around to get offended. But on Frank, can't we at least agree to like Robocop?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Gray64 Since: Dec, 1969
#93: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:15:56 PM

[up] Miller has had some pretty racist (or at least extremely culturally chauvinistic) things to say about Arabs, Arabic culture, and Muslims in general. And this is stuff he's flat out said, not wrapped in the metaphor of fiction.

Severen Since: May, 2010
#94: Jan 19th 2012 at 10:58:12 PM

"Miller has had some pretty racist (or at least extremely culturally chauvinistic) things to say about Arabs, Arabic culture, and Muslims in general. And this is stuff he's flat out said, not wrapped in the metaphor of fiction."

Proof, please. Show me a link. I've searched high and low, and everything he's said about that region had to do with Islam, the religion. For the last time, you can't be racist against Muslims, because Islam is not a race!

As for 300:

"Just appreciate the flashy battles and the stuff Miller got right."

For the last time, he wasn't trying to get things right. Here's Miller's explanation, for the upcoming work XERXES:

"When I work on a story I choose a point of view," Miller adds. "For this story, the approach was to tell this story the way the Spartans told it around the campfire. That's the reason they were fighting against 80-foot elephants and that's why Xerxes was portrayed as a much larger-than-life figure and given these traits that the Spartans would (project on to) their enemies."

There you have it: a story told by an Unreliable Narrator who doesn't let the facts get in the way of a story designed to motivate soldiers in an upcoming war. Yes, the depictions were racist, but that's the point. It's being told from the POV of the side that's fighting the Persians in a war to the death. Of course there'd be demonization of the enemy. It is in no way a true demonization of Persian people or culture or, for that matter, a love letter to ancient Sparta. Some people may think Miller's just making this up, but I don't. It makes perfect sense to me. The fact that he's making a sequel from Xerxes' point of view, in my opinion, proves this.

edited 19th Jan '12 11:11:06 PM by Severen

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#95: Jan 20th 2012 at 4:11:56 PM

When we see the story we'll have our proof. I'm interested in a perspective flip. I know all about the unreliable narrator but even that goes halfway. The elephants, rhinos, maybe even mutants and magic but the Greeks thought all who didn't speak Greek were barbarians, (unless you were from Ethiopia then you got a pass) they wouldn't do Race Lifts. 300 has Unfortunate Implications that could have been avoided. There are worse roles actors could get in an area that traditionally doesn't cater to them but I'm not going to say the Iranians who banned 300 have nothing to stand on, because they do. This isn't like when China bans a movie for being completely accurate about something they don't want to talk about.

Maybe they'll be forgiving when Xerxes is the protagonist? Maybe it'll be equally offensive to the Greeks and get it banned in Greece? I'm more interested in naval battles and the taking of the other city states. I enjoyed 300, there was nothing bad enough to make it unreadable/unwatchable to me but I'm not about to go and say it was totally innocent or beyond reproach. I didn't have a problem with the Twins from Transformers Revenge Of The Fallen, I did not think the Mickie James-Laycool feud was an assault on women's rights but we call them Unfortunate Implications because the author likely didn't mean to cause the problem the audiences found. I'm not saying Frank Miller is racist but 300 has those overtones. Had 300 not been tied to real events it would have been better off.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#96: Jan 21st 2012 at 12:01:36 PM

At Severen: Well, man! I have to take my hat off to you. I have to admire someone who is honest and is willing to speak out against the majority. grin

You have a point about not being able to tell someone's mental state from their work. Sometimes it's just a guy who wants to a write a story. Not every story has to express someone's views of the world.

Miller moved back to Hell's Kitchen by 2001 and was creating Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again as the 9/11 terrorist attacks occurred about 4 miles from that neighborhood.

Sure, a horrible event occurred a short distance away from where he lived, and he probably saw it with his own eyes, but there's no way that affected the quality of his work! There's no way his work after 9/11 was a method for him to achieve catharsis over the trauma of that event!

You have a point about the racist part. I was under the impression that racism is more about considering yourself superior to someone simply because hir skin colour does not match yours. Skin colour is a different topic from religion!

You have a point about the prostitutes. I mean, there's Memetic Mutation about Frank Miller and prostitutes, but it's exaggeration, isn't it? It would help to explain why people shake their fingers at Miller's work and cry "Misogynistic!" Yet the strange thing is, there are Video Games, like Fear Effect and Meat Puppet, that feature prostitutes, and no one shakes their fingers at them and cries "Misogynistic!"

You have a point about the facism. A number of Miller's works focus on the Vigilante Man. Vigilantes aren't facists, they're anarchists! Here's a definition for anarchy: Anarchism; the political theory that a community is best organized by the voluntary cooperation of individuals, rather than by a government, which is regarded as being coercive by nature. So a vigilante, by that definition, would actually be fighting against facism rather than standing for it!

In summary, you make some good points. Maybe Frank Miller shouldn't get bashed so much! wink

edited 21st Jan '12 1:19:38 PM by TiggersAreGreat

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
Gray64 Since: Dec, 1969
#97: Jan 21st 2012 at 2:10:53 PM

[up] Actualy, people DO shake their finger at those games and call them misogynistic.

And actually, Severen, you're correct. It's not accurate to accuse Miller of racism per se, but cultural chauvinism is definitely there, I think. And feeling your culture is inherently superior to someone else's isn't any better, really, than thinking your race is inherently superior to theirs. As to a link to Miller being culturally chauvinistic, here you go: http://www.theatlasphere.com/metablog/612.php

Miller makes a few valid points here, but he does seem think radical islam and Arabic culture are one and the same. And religious intolerance isn't any better than racism, either.

Severen Since: May, 2010
#98: Jan 21st 2012 at 6:27:45 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Gray64 Since: Dec, 1969
#99: Jan 22nd 2012 at 1:01:53 AM

(Off-topicness removed by Best Of)

For the record, I loved Batman:Year One (still think it's one of the best Batman stories ever, and David Mazuchelli one of the best Batman artists), and I thought The Dark Knight Returns was wicked awesome when I was 12, though I'm afraid it hasn't held up for me on subsequent readings. I liked a few of Frank's Sin City work, but these days I find a lot of his stuff just kind of simple-minded. His reliance on sensationalism and luridness just kind of turns me off, but that's purely a matter of taste. I find his use of repetitive phrases and what he must imagine are punchy one-liners extremely annoying. All Star Batman and Robin was just...bad. I mean it took, what, three issues for Batman to drive Dick Grayson to the Batcave? Pacing? Anyone? In short, I used to like his work, but for the most part, I don't anymore.

edited 5th Feb '12 5:22:22 PM by BestOf

Severen Since: May, 2010
#100: Jan 22nd 2012 at 11:18:12 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.

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