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SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#126: Nov 16th 2011 at 2:50:28 PM

[up] Ideas can't be property: The very notion that they can be is offensive.

Ideas are the common heritage of mankind. Artists should be rewarded: The best way to do it is to plunder the rich and directly fund artistry.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
Raikage Just chillin' Since: Aug, 2009
Just chillin'
#127: Nov 16th 2011 at 2:52:55 PM

I honestly don't even see how this could possibly pass...there is so much WRONG with this bill, on a constitutional level too.

Is there some reason why everyone seems certain that it will definitely pass and the internet will be destroyed when even I can see the blatant holes in the bill and the problems it would cause?

edited 16th Nov '11 2:53:12 PM by Raikage

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#128: Nov 16th 2011 at 2:53:05 PM

[up][up] In my opinion Savage, I find your assertions that ideas aren't property to be SUPREMELY offensive.

Ideas ARE property. The physical goods we all have, including the very computer or electronic device you used to type that outlandish statement, began as ideas in someone's head.

[up] Wait, I thought the assumption was it was gonna fail.

edited 16th Nov '11 2:53:56 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
BlixtySlycat |like a boss| from Driving the Rad Hazard Since: Aug, 2011
|like a boss|
#129: Nov 16th 2011 at 2:55:13 PM

Yes, but ask yourself the question, what's more tangible as property, the computer, or the "idea of a computer"?

I can claim to think of faster-than-light travel. Can, in a century, provided I'm still around, I claim copyright infringement if someone actually invents it?

It's the difference between owning a house and owning a sculpture of a house.

go ahead and do every stupid thing you can imagine
Katrika Since: Jul, 2009
#130: Nov 16th 2011 at 2:57:45 PM

I disapprove of piracy highly, and I think that copyright law is good. However, I think this bill is way too draconian. That's why I oppose this bill, Maxima. Not because I want to rob artists of their royalty, but because this bill is going to have a LOT of collateral damage if it goes through.

[up]The problem with that is you're wrong. You're talking about patents, not copyrights, and to get a patent you have to prove your idea works.

edited 16th Nov '11 2:58:53 PM by Katrika

"You fail to grasp the basic principles of mad science. Common sense would be cheating." - Narbonic
Canondorf Since: Sep, 2009
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#132: Nov 16th 2011 at 2:59:02 PM

That's absurd under capitalist society. But that's the fault of capitalism, not of the anti-IP movement (which is typically anti-capitalist, too).

And I no longer have to take you seriously, when it comes to this debate.

Hold on, hold on. USAF, why just the creators lifespan?

...because when you die there's no reason to not make it public domain? Other people didn't make the idea, you did. Now, granted, this doesn't always work—I wouldn't, for example, advocate making Mickey Mouse public domain, but I would advocate making Steamboat Willie and other old cartoons public domain, because the original creator(s) are probably dead, and if not then as soon as they are, it should be.

Ideas can't be property: The very notion that they can be is offensive.

A story isn't really an idea, though. If I write a book, it's not just in my head anymore, it's tangible then, in the sense that it does, in fact, exist.

Ideas are the common heritage of mankind. Artists should be rewarded: The best way to do it is to plunder the rich and directly fund artistry.

One wonders why anyone would want to succeed in a world built under your ideals, since anybody who gets ahead would immediately be "plundered" because they're obviously evil for being successful.

edited 16th Nov '11 3:01:37 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#133: Nov 16th 2011 at 2:59:10 PM

The notion that ideas can be property is absurd: NOBODY is entitled to restrict what you can or can't communicate, and certainly they're not entitled to decide whether you'll get to take advantage of an innovation. They do not own your life, they do not own your mind, they do not own your body, and they have no fucking claim to restrict what you do with'em.

Beware he who'd restrict your information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

The E-PARASITES act is just an example of how copyrights are inherently animical to liberty: To enforce them requires crippling free speech, and the livelihood of a bunch of greedy suits ('cause they get the lion's share of royalties) is simply not worth the people's multiple rights to access culture, to communicate freely and to generally be left the Hell alone.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#134: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:03:13 PM

An excellent metaphor Blixty, but not altogether accurate. Or rather, not an altogether accurate conclusion.

As somebody that studied the movie business and screenwriting, I can speak on this a bit.

You CANNOT copyright a "general" idea. A million people have "thought of" adventures in space with ray guns and starships and far off locations. Star Trek, Star Wars, and Babylon5 are "specific executions" of an idea.

Someone may think of suave guys that have a way with the ladies and beat up bad guys. Indiana Jones, James Bond and Triple X are all specific executions of that idea.

In other words, it takes effort to create the charater, the story, and the presentation.

So basically, nobody could try to copyright say, the warp engine. But if some kid from MIT actually sits down and somehow creates specific designs, then yes, he should get a cut if some other kid from say Harvard then builds a prototype.

It was an honor
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#135: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:04:16 PM

@Maxima

Re-read most of my initial response to you, where I explain in detail why eventual cultural sharing is so vital. The way that people remix old ideas while adding in new twists is the very cornerstone of creativity. If we restrict ideas from being able to be freely used even after the creator can no longer profit from them, it'll put a stranglehold on creativity.

Copyright was never, never ever intended to strangle ideas and lock them away forever; it was supposed to be a compromise between creators profiting from their works and society adding works to the cultural and historical consensus.

edited 16th Nov '11 3:04:45 PM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#136: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:08:18 PM

My theory is that the anti piracy part is a smokescreen for the public. So they can say to opposition "What, you WANT pirates to roam free!?" while in reality its about taking control of the government.

And even if it was trying to stop piracy, it would be like trying to take out crime violence by nuking the city.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#137: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:08:21 PM

I would never presume to dictate what you can and cannot talk about, Savage.

But I WILL presume to tell you that you have no right to collect a check for writing a story about a starship called Enterprise that explores space on behalf of an organization known as the Federation, because you didn't create the fucking thing.

edited 16th Nov '11 3:09:14 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#138: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:09:24 PM

What about Bethesda suing Mojang because of the word Scrolls is in their newest game?

edited 16th Nov '11 3:09:30 PM by Thorn14

MrW from some place Since: Sep, 2010
#139: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:10:02 PM

All in all, it feels as Obama would probably veto it. He has a freaking Twitter, for pete's sake, he knows how the internet ticks.

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#140: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:10:39 PM

Presidents can be pressured and bought out just as much as congress can.

Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#141: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:12:28 PM

@Maxima

Then you better tell all the people who've ever created stories based on Shakespeare, Alice in Wonderland, Sherlock Holmes, mythology, etc. that they didn't deserve their paycheck!

That includes Disney, ironically enough. Most of Disney's Animated Canon wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the public domain.

edited 16th Nov '11 3:12:39 PM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#142: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:15:49 PM

What about Bethesda suing Mojang because of the word Scrolls is in their newest game?

I would call that bullshit of the first order, and I think Mojang countersue for a million.

Just like I'd have a problem with Paramount/CBS sending a take-down to a You Tube video of a Star Trek fan film.

@Jeysie - I'm not against the distribution of ideas, and I'm against creators who try to act like they're the only ones entitled to have ideas.

George Lucas tried to sue Glen Larson, the exec producer of the 70's Battlestar Galactica on the basis of copying Star Wars. I found that the height of hypocrisy since Star Wars cribbed so many classic Sci-Fi serials colleges teach classes on it.

But, I still think it's wrong if you go on a torrent or You Tube and watch the entirety of Return Of The Jedi for free.

It was an honor
Dream_Huntress Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#143: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:17:31 PM

@Thorn: Didn't the Obama campaign on 2008 got most of the donation money from internet donations, made by regular people instead of different organizations? He knows how the internet works, and quite frankly it would an incredibly stupid move to alienate the companies that are still generating income with this broken economy, aka, internate based companies.

edited 16th Nov '11 3:18:42 PM by Dream_Huntress

I can't have you close, so I become a ghost and I watch you, I watch you.
Jeysie Diva of Virtual Death from Western Massachusetts Since: Jun, 2010
Diva of Virtual Death
#144: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:18:39 PM

@Maxima

Well, yeah, there's not a lot of people trying to argue in favor of wholesale piracy.

The problem is that current copyright and its related DRM often go far beyond just stopping outright piracy. And the concept of public domain is more complicated than just "free stuff to watch".

edited 16th Nov '11 3:19:28 PM by Jeysie

Apparently I am adorable, but my GF is my #1 Groupie. (Avatar by Dreki-K)
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#145: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:19:19 PM

Hence my "Nuking the city" comparison.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#146: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:22:58 PM

Well, then my original statement stands, it's a bad idea of a bill.

@Jeysie - Your assertions on Shakespeare and Disney are beyond refute. But again, I'm talking about "specific executions" of an idea.

48HOurs, Rush Hour, Lethal Weapon, and Bad Boys are all different, specific, executions of the same general idea.

edited 16th Nov '11 3:25:13 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
SavageOrange tilkau from vi Since: Mar, 2011
tilkau
#147: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:31:58 PM

You CANNOT copyright a "general" idea.
You cannot copyright an idea full stop. Indiana Jones, James Bond, Star Wars.. these are all concrete expressions of ideas; concrete expressions is what copyright law covers.

EDIT: yes, a 'specific execution' is not an idea; it's an actual physical thing that was made with one or more ideas in mind.

PS.

edited 16th Nov '11 3:37:53 PM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#148: Nov 16th 2011 at 3:35:01 PM

[up] Savage, elaborate please.

It was an honor
EarlOfSandvich Since: Jun, 2011
#149: Nov 16th 2011 at 4:04:49 PM

I've read an article that the representative who introduced the bill said that Google opposed the bill because they profit off piracy.

...

...

WHAT!?

edited 16th Nov '11 4:05:28 PM by EarlOfSandvich

I now go by Graf von Tirol.

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