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Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#4451: May 2nd 2012 at 1:59:13 AM

It goes to show: if you build fluidity into your model (or notice you need to incorporate it soon enough), you can shift. Maybe not on a dime, but soon enough that you don't lose market share. Wait until the problem is staring you in the face, and say good-bye to chunks of share.

Small alone doesn't have to be fluid, but not having much of an ossified corporate culture helps. <shrugs> Reasons to employ decently trained occupational psychologists, folks (and actually listen to them). tongue

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4452: May 2nd 2012 at 9:13:45 AM

So, a friend of mine informed me that Diablo3 is going to be online only. I mean, I kind of recall hearing that, but after thinking "You know what, I haven't bought any games in a while, maybe I'll buy Diablo 3 once it finally comes out-if I can find a used copy" that turned into "Yeah, not gonna happen, you can't get a used copy because of the way the game's managed and you can't play it off-line because AWMFG PIRACY!"

So, fuck that shit. I hate that kind of thing. I mean, I understand why the firms institute those kinds of policies but really, I don't think it's going to give them a positive revenue stream.

Karkadinn Karkadinn from New Orleans, Louisiana Since: Jul, 2009
Karkadinn
#4453: May 2nd 2012 at 9:26:09 AM

That would be much less of an issue if the US wasn't so far behind in net infrastructure, of course. The dev team's response to criticism of that design choice also seemed particularly boneheaded to me - it was basically 'I can go to a hotel and get umpteen wireless connections, are you seriously telling me people have problems finding an internet connection in these days?' Ignoring the fact that the problem usually isn't so much having any connection as it is having a consistently stable one - especially for hardcore (that's permadeath mode, for those of you who don't know)! I mean, I can see WHY they did it, but they didn't do a good job of supporting that decision or of respectfully acknowledging the downsides that necessarily come with it. They just sort of treated it like it was duh, obvious and couldn't possibly have any negatives for the customer.

And they'll get away with it, because it's goddamn Diablo 3. Whadda ya gonna do?

Parallels neatly with how they killed LAN in Starcraft 2, to the massive ire of the 'pro' subcommunity.

edited 2nd May '12 9:27:16 AM by Karkadinn

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#4454: May 2nd 2012 at 9:27:32 AM

Eh, I see Diablo 3 as similar to Guild Wars (1, not 2, which has a much more traditional MMO design) so it doesn't bother me that much, or at least I'm used to it.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4455: May 2nd 2012 at 9:33:06 AM

Well, one advantage of the online-only model, to the game producer at least, is that it compels each player to pay the producer for the game (either directly or indirectly through retail). The used game channel is almost entirely eliminated (account trading aside). Piracy also becomes more difficult because the game client contains none of the server content that's required to play it, so you either have to use the company's servers and abide by their policies, or you have to reverse engineer a private server, something quite a bit more challenging than removing copy protection from a standalone game.

While it is true that lack of available broadband does put a sharp limit on the market for the product, the company might justify it in the sense that increased income from people paying them directly for the product balances out losses from people who are unable to get online.

I mean, it hasn't exactly hurt games like World Of Warcraft — granted that World Of Warcraft has no single-player experience so it's not the best comparison. Also, Starcraft II requires online authentication to play, too, doesn't it? I haven't heard of sales of that title faltering, even though I didn't buy it myself.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4456: May 2nd 2012 at 9:34:38 AM

Well, Diablo 2 is a game I much preferred off-line to begin with.

More to the point, I like to buy used games because they're a shit ton cheaper. I guess that cuts into sales though so they couldn't care less.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4457: May 2nd 2012 at 9:37:42 AM

The video game companies see none of that, and in theory it hurts their top line by reducing sales of new product — granted that the maximum potential revenue involved in media is limited to a consumer's overall entertainment budget, used sales only benefit the store, not the producer.

I have heard that if the video game companies succeed in banning used game sales, stores like GameStop may go out of business. I'm not sure I follow the logic there; it strikes me as saying that if we banned the sale of used cars, auto dealerships would go bust. Maybe they would, I don't know...

edited 2nd May '12 9:39:05 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4458: May 2nd 2012 at 9:38:57 AM

Well, theoretically, the existence of a used games market means that the asset that in the game has higher overall worth because the initial purchaser has the ability to sell the game back.

But I don't know how much that really follows.

Gamestop's main advantage over online sales, I would think, are their in-store credit. The hassle free "Trade in your games!" market.

edited 2nd May '12 9:44:39 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#4459: May 2nd 2012 at 11:08:34 AM

yeah, Gamestop is built around trading used games, not distributing new ones. They just can't compete with the likes of direct download or direct shipping because brick and mortar shopping is more or less a dying a niche. Auto dealerships don't have that kind of distribution competition.

Regarding constant online validation: I'd be fine with this if these people could just get some stable servers working (besides accounting for terrible internet). I've been trying to play the Mass Effect 3 multiplayer for the past week, and EA's servers are a pile of junk and have managed to CTD my game during authentication. I mean seriously, how do you do that. Here's a fun fact: a 100ms lag spike in Amazon's service causes a 1% drop in sales. Terribly DRM'd games: how do you think this translates to player base?

Also, there was one other thing I forgot to mention about the special case of Apple which was touched upon at the top post: they were the ones forcing the market shift toward mobile. Not just leading, but actually forcing.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4460: May 2nd 2012 at 1:10:32 PM

For the record, related to the specific case I was talking about, Blizzard's services have a sterling reputation for uptime, so I doubt that will be a major factor in a purchasing decision like it would be for other publishers. It's not necessarily the general case though; Ubisoft got media attention a few months ago for a series of "upgrades" to its DRM servers that caused a lot of customers to be unable to play their games for as long as a week.

edited 2nd May '12 1:10:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4461: May 2nd 2012 at 1:13:07 PM

<facepalm>

I'll just go back to playing Diablo 2. I own THAT game legally.

Cassie The armored raven from Malaysia, but where? Since: Feb, 2011
The armored raven
#4462: May 2nd 2012 at 4:23:38 PM

Well yes. If car dealers aren't allowed to deal with used cars anymore, you get a more expensive version of this predicament. A product which can be used again, turned out to be not the case. It's the customers that are shot first

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...
Wulf Gotta trope, dood! from Louisiana Since: Jan, 2001
Gotta trope, dood!
#4463: May 2nd 2012 at 7:53:18 PM

Ceasing my lurking for a quick response about the Diablo 3 thing— IIRC, it's online only partly to prevent piracy and partly as an anti-cheating thing.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4464: May 2nd 2012 at 7:55:06 PM

Oh right. That's the other thing-

I LIKE TO CHEAT IN MY SINGLE PLAYER GAMING THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#4465: May 2nd 2012 at 7:56:09 PM

Games that have online only single player only encourage piracy, as that becomes the only way to get it to work offline.

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4466: May 2nd 2012 at 7:56:35 PM

You think that someone'll make an offline D3 crack?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4467: May 2nd 2012 at 7:57:32 PM

But the only way to pirate it if the game client does not actually contain the necessary content to run it offline is to reverse-engineer the server end. That takes a much larger technical investment than pirating an entirely offline game. Plus, it makes you much more vulnerable to being taken down by the game companies, as they have a marked investment in killing them and they're easier targets than individual consumers.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4468: May 2nd 2012 at 7:59:45 PM

So wait, is D3 going to be like cloud gaming, where the actual game is on some server and you're just transmitting commands and receiving output from the game, so that comparatively small amount of the game needs to be on your hard drive?

I dislike that because of the way I play games, but it at least has the advantage of not using up much hard disk space. I sincerely doubt that's what they'll be doing.

Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#4469: May 2nd 2012 at 7:59:58 PM

It's an absurd model. Imagine a bookstore that let you buy a book but only read it while in the store.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4470: May 2nd 2012 at 8:01:11 PM

The game client contains all the art assets but I assume that the level generation and AI will be on the server side.

@Vyctorian: I assume you've never heard of digital bookstore clouds? I just bought the book in my sig below for my iPad Kindle app — I suppose Amazon could set up a deal where I have to be online to access it, but where I actually am is irrelevant.

You can't rationally compare hardcopy products to digital products.

edited 2nd May '12 8:02:55 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4471: May 2nd 2012 at 8:02:32 PM

That makes sense, I suppose-effectively making Diablo 3 into the first single player MMO. Anyway, I digress.

Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#4472: May 2nd 2012 at 8:03:30 PM

[up][up]Still absurd.

Why not?

edited 2nd May '12 8:03:49 PM by Vyctorian

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4473: May 2nd 2012 at 8:07:08 PM

Because absent some method of verification, digital copies of products are fungible — that is, you can't verify that the person currently using it is the owner, or prevent it from being copied. I swear we've been over this before in this thread and others, multiple times.

A book is a physical product that requires an investment of physical resources to duplicate. To use a technical term, its marginal cost is not zero, unlike digital media where storage and copying are free for all intents and purposes.

That is why DRM exists. Now, my iPad example is probably overblown, since DRM is established by physical ownership of the device, and the device software itself limits your ability to make copies.

PC games, on the other hand, have no such limitations. Therefore always-online DRM and/or client-server DRM models are two very reliable ways to ensure that each person who is accessing the software has genuinely paid for it.

edited 2nd May '12 8:08:26 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#4474: May 2nd 2012 at 8:08:25 PM

You act like counterfeit products are new thing. We've had them for centuries, this isn't anything new.

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4475: May 2nd 2012 at 8:10:01 PM

The cost of counterfitting determines the supply and demand of counterfitters or whatever. You won't entirely get rid of piracy with DRM, but the theory is that you'll reduce it.

Of course, because there are multiple factors at play, some DRM actually increases piracy, but that's an issue by issue case.

I, for one, am exceedingly unlikely to purchase Diablo 3 now that I've been reminded of the online only "NO CHEATS FOR YOU" policy.

edited 2nd May '12 8:10:43 PM by TheyCallMeTomu


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