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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#251: Jul 24th 2020 at 5:37:35 AM

I remember how difficult Hunters would be in any given game until you understood their movements, and that learning curve allowed you to dance around them once you've gotten good enough.

That was one of the biggest drawbacks to "Hunter" type enemies. Once you had the "dance", they became pretty one dimensional.

Which is why I love Halo 5's Hunters most of all. They're no longer one dimensional damage sponges.

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#252: Jul 24th 2020 at 6:06:57 AM

So, Alanah Pearce noticed something. Those flying Grunts in the demo? Apparently Brutes will pick them up and throw them at you.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#253: Jul 24th 2020 at 11:37:56 AM

The solution to Hunter-type enemies was generally to improve the AI and tweak the balancing so that you have to anticipate more than two or three moves. Halo 3 Hunters were really easy to figure out, especially because their beam weapons were so slow moving, while Halo Reach and Halo 4 Hunters were more difficult due to smarter responses and different weapons. I feared Halo 5 Hunters, but not in a good way, as they were so reactionary and so lethal your only option was to flank them and ping their weak points from a safe distance, which made them more 1 dimensional. Knights in 5 were better because their size matched their difficulty, their weak points were easier to hit and their reaction to parts breaking allowed you to maneuver around and hit the other crit points.

To fix the Halo 5 Hunters could involve maybe keeping their reaction speed but reducing their accuracy or melee damage. It was just not a lot of fun to fight them.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#254: Jul 24th 2020 at 8:43:19 PM

So, Alanah Pearce noticed something. Those flying Grunts in the demo? Apparently Brutes will pick them up and throw them at you.

Tell me the thrown Grunts inflict damage upon what they hit. From the sheer physics please.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#255: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:01:53 AM

So I'm hearing Halo Infinite will be open world

Why on earth would you make a Halo title open-world...

-watches first few minutes of the trailer-

...alright. I mean, there's a map and optional objectives. I think that was a big mistake. Open-world game design really isn't as fabulous as people think it is - games like Grand Theft Auto aren't that common anymore. There's structural weaknesses in open world design but everybody always sees the idea of "big open world where I can do anything I want at my own pace" and it just lures you in. Then people end up disappointed when the mission/story structure is bad, the optional objectives get too numerous, the world feels too empty, and the map gets annoying to navigate.

An open world "level" here and there would be fine. I'm a little disconcerted if the whole game is designed this way. That "upgrade" menu doesn't sound too good either. If I have to start exploring ruins to find ancient artifacts that power up the MJOLNIR armor, I'm returning the game right then and there.

Gameplay otherwise looks good, though you don't really gib enemies anymore huh. Seeing Brutes and Elites fighting side-by-side again is... strange. I'm going to try and not read too much about the "Banished" because I'm curious why we're back to this line-up again. They can't have just omitted Cortana and the Prometheans from the story, so at what point did Cortana's new galactic order allow the Brutes and Elites to rejoin forces?

Edited by FOFD on Jul 25th 2020 at 3:33:45 AM

Dhiruxide Since: Dec, 2016
#256: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:11:45 AM

The Craig the Halo Infinite Brute meme currently is hilarious

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#257: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:43:56 AM

Seeing Brutes and Elites fighting side-by-side again

They've never fought "side by side" in terms of gameplay. It's always been either Brutes or Elites, at best one then the other after the first has been killed.

The only time they appear in the same encounter or setpiece as enemies of the player is in "Gravemind" and at that point it's a Mêlée à Trois, they're not considered the same "faction" under the hood anymore.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#258: Jul 25th 2020 at 5:56:44 AM

To me it sounds like these Banished are likely a splinter faction of what was once the Covenant, who are not interested in any kind of peace settlement between the Covenant and the UNSC. Though I have to wonder how they defeated the UNSC so handily if the full Covenant couldn't manage it.

It's been fun.
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#259: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:11:27 AM

That’s exactly what they are. The Elites seen in their ranks are actually mercenaries.

They actually rebelled against the Covenant before the end of the war.

Edited by theLibrarian on Jul 25th 2020 at 8:11:35 AM

Cganale (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#260: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:44:30 AM

The Banished have a history of innovation with their tech that the rest of the Covenant have historically eschewed. So their weapons and equipment are a lot meaner and harder hitting.

Though, you got me on how the Covenant never just took a break from genociding humanity to go steamroll these guys back when they at least had the numbers advantage. But then, for the longest time, Atriox and the Banished played along like good little minions, until they weren't.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#261: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:48:42 AM

Well, I don't see the point in getting an Xbox One just to play Halo 5, so I'll likely just skip the generation and get Infinite. I've looked up some story spoilers from 5, and it honestly doesn't sound like I'm missing a lot. Or rather, it sounds like I'm missing a lot of faff and nonsense, and not a lot of enjoyment.

It's been fun.
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#262: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:12:28 AM

All of the games are coming to PC now anyway so it doesn't really matter.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#263: Jul 25th 2020 at 7:22:04 AM

Oh, okay. I thought they were stopping with ODST after the Master Chief Collection.

It's been fun.
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#264: Jul 25th 2020 at 12:02:06 PM

See, the game is promising some truly massive levels. One of the most visually spectacular levels in any Halo game was The Covenant from Halo 3 where you had to fight through multiple locations, take down shields and fly what felt like miles over water to the final shield generator, but it's still a very linear level and most Halo games have been especially linear. If we are given like 5 or 6 enormous maps with multiple objectives we can accomplish in any order and are opened up through the playing of the campaign rather than 1 unbroken map that constitutes the majority of the campaign, like ODST, I think I could be onboard with that. Using Combat Evolved as a reference, imagine Stellar Cartography, Assault on the Control Room and The Library connected together, similarly a Halo and Truth and Reconciliation combined level. I agree that Halo has foremost been about story development with each level, so I don't want them to lose that with the truly Open World approach, but some of the most engaging stuff in Halo has been those large levels that you're not quite sure where the exit is.

I noticed some of the graphical problems, mostly in the close-up of Escharum at the end, but apparently 343 said the demo was actually recorded 6 months ago in anticipation of the canceled E3 in June, so this wasn't made just 2-3 weeks ago. As seen in the Halo 5 beta that also had some missing textures and changed the color palette before release. Something always being pushed around in games lately is trying to ensure they are played at 60fps and I imagine for the demo they underplayed the settings to make that happen. Given it's coming to PC you may have some more options to fine tune the graphics accordingly yourself. As most know both demos for Halo 2 were actually scrapped entirely because the engine was meant to look pretty and couldn't actually deliver what they needed, so they had to rebuild the engine entirely. A lot of games have been criticized for overplaying their graphics for the demos, so underplaying it is different.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#265: Jul 25th 2020 at 12:33:57 PM

but some of the most engaging stuff in Halo has been those large levels that you're not quite sure where the exit is.

And the best ones of that have always been those that have plenty of places to go that don't necessarily require plot or enemies or anything. Just see what there is to see. Sometimes there's hidden stuff, sometimes not, sometimes it requires tricks or glitches to fully see.

The second level of Halo CE, the Silent Cartographer, Assault on the Control Room, (parts of) 343 Guilty Spark, Outskirts (when Rooftop Hopping), Metropolis (particularly to reach the Scarab Gun), The Arbiter (the flying sections especially), Delta Halo/Regret, Quarantine Zone, The Ark (Halo 3), The Covenant (Halo 3), Mombasa Streets, Uplift Reserve, Kikowani Station, Winter Contingency, Long Night of Solace (space section), New Alexandria, Shutdown, and most levels of Halo 5 when you dig deep enough. All are examples of this. Levels built without railroading in mind in full or in part where the linear sections are simply part of (or the most played part of) the level as opposed to the full thing.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#266: Jul 25th 2020 at 3:39:19 PM

I can think of only 3 instances in Halo where I found something really interesting off the main path (skulls notwithstanding) - finding the RVB guys arguing in Halo 3's second level, finding the Forerunner records on The Ark in Halo 3, and finding the Scarab Gun in Halo 2. I recall flying around in the sandstorm of Halo 2's first Arbiter level for like half an hour as a kid... and finding nothing of real interest or gain. Dying a bunch because Xbox controllers are stupid.

Maybe there's a bunch of little things I missed , but there's a world of difference between semi-linear levels with clear paths forward and easter eggs, versus a completely open map with "explore everything" as a selling point. Spending time in instanced locations keeps the game from getting too stale, each level brings something new and thematic. Having multiple levels looped into a single map will get old unless there's massive, sweeping, Nier Automata-esque changes to the map.

Master Chief's next adventure takes place on another Halo ring, but this one will be unlike the rest we’ve visited. Halo Infinite allows players to explore the new battleground with a lot more freedom instead of being confined to levels. As shown in the campaign gameplay demo during the Xbox Games Showcase, Chief can hop in a Warthog and take on mission objectives in whatever order you choose. He's even got a grappling hook called the Grapple Shot to help him get around easier. IGN interviewed Halo Infinite Studio Head Chris Lee and Associate Creative Director Paul Crocker to get more details on the depth of the exploration and how we'll go about earning upgrades.

I can already see us being forced to go to certain "points" on the map to upgrade the Chief's abilities.

Halo Infinite doesn't have any sort of experience meter, nor does the Chief keep a permanent weapon loadout as far as we know. Lee explained that upgrades are items you'll discover as you explore, rather than some sort of experience-based skill tree or other mechanics that wouldn't make much sense in Halo.

"We do have a light upgrade system for Chief as he explores this ring. He'll be able to upgrade equipment items," Chris said. "The grapple and the drop shield that we showed are kind of in that concept of a spiritual reboot that harken back to the equipment system in Halo 3. Those are two new equipment items that Chief will be able to find and use as you play through the game."

Or that. Great.

This is one of those times where I want to scream "stop changing things darn it, you were doing so much right and now you're just adding things to be trendy!" I've gone from excited to cautiously optimistic.

To me it sounds like these Banished are likely a splinter faction of what was once the Covenant, who are not interested in any kind of peace settlement between the Covenant and the UNSC

Didn't Halo 4 already have a splinter faction of Covenant. Is this the same group? Where were the Brutes in that game?

Edited by FOFD on Jul 25th 2020 at 3:56:50 AM

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#267: Jul 25th 2020 at 6:06:54 PM

[up] Halo 4's group was basically made from Jul M'dama going to an isolated Covenant colony then recruiting others from elsewhere, with no Brutes ever shown as a part of his faction. The Banished were another group entirely.

Edited by doineedaname on Jul 25th 2020 at 9:07:03 AM

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#268: Jul 25th 2020 at 8:25:48 PM

Like I said, I would be hesitant if they told us up front that it is one unbroken level. Batman: Arkham Knight boasted the same concept and while it was quite large it didn't really capture the sheer vastness you need to in order to portray a realistic and interactive setting. Many Spider-Man games do rather well, but Spidey's mobility is a major part of his powers so he isn't spending nearly as much time in any one place. So it needs to feel like we are visiting vastly different parts of the ring and not just 5 square miles that has condensed all notable biomes (forest, swamp, caves, desert, snow tundra, volcano, beaches and the forerunner structures peppered throughout) into a few minutes driving distance.

The size of the maps is not necessarily about exploration but about feeling like you are walking into a real location: buildings that serve an infrastructure purpose, crashed vehicles, overgrown vegetation. Halo 5 had some of the largest locations, in part to facilitate the four player co-op, but despite some superficially beautiful artwork they didn't feel nearly as real and lived-in as the places in Halo Reach. The first half of Halo 3 was also a really good example, as you are pushing through dam infrastructures and can see how the enemy carefully selected locations for makeshift defense points. And the last section is driving through parts of the Halo ring that haven't been completed yet.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#269: Jul 25th 2020 at 8:50:02 PM

I can think of only 3 instances in Halo where I found something really interesting off the main path (skulls notwithstanding)

You've never gone mountain climbing on Delta Halo/Regret or Uprising/The Great Journey?

You never found "HI BEN"? Or the Special Dialogue Grunts? Or went Sequence Breaking on various levels? Or found the Hidden Marine on 343 Guilty Spark? Or any of that jazz?

UmbrellasWereAwesome Former Dear Leader of East Whonosistan from The Republic of Whonosistan Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Former Dear Leader of East Whonosistan
#270: Jul 26th 2020 at 1:47:23 AM

[up]x4 I take it you (and some other people in this thread) haven't followed Halo too much outside of the FPS entries; the Banished are the main baddies of Halo Wars 2, and are basically a former anti-Covenant rebellion that have since become a mix of crime syndicate and roving warband who have their hooks in several post-Covenant factions and worlds (primarily Brute ones). Their leader is a Brute, but since he left the Covenant before the Elites and Brutes started shooting each other (and personally views their conflict as a pointless waste of good warriors), he's able and willing to recruit desperate Elite mercenaries. I should note that the Banished do not believe in the Covenant religion (with believers pressured to keep their faith secret), and are perfectly willing to work with humans should their interests align. They're sort of the Brute SPECTRE/Chaos horde to the Halo 4/5 Covenant's Elite ISIS.

EDIT: Basically, one of the more interesting parts of 343's worldbuilding (even if they haven't really expressed it all that well in the games themselves) is that the Covenant didn't just splinter into Brute vs. Elite, or Covenant holdouts vs. those who lost their faith. Instead, with the Covenant's central government completely annihilated in less than a year, every would-be warlord/demagogue/prophet/revolutionary/pirate/mafioso has been scrambling to claim their piece of the ex-Covenant pie.

Edited by UmbrellasWereAwesome on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:09:56 PM

World Whosball Champion 1945-1991
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#271: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:05:40 AM

^I played 1, but not 2 - and this is pretty indicative of the problems people have mentioned, where you have to basically consume every part of a multimedia franchise if you want to follow the story even in the mainline games.

It's been fun.
UmbrellasWereAwesome Former Dear Leader of East Whonosistan from The Republic of Whonosistan Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Former Dear Leader of East Whonosistan
#272: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:10:03 AM

Thankfully, it looks like the "Database" we saw in the menu of the demo might serve as something of an in-game codex to finally not leave more casual fans out of the lurch.

EDIT: That said, most of the expanded universe material released post-Halo 4 tell stories that only connect to the games in relatively tangential ways (except maybe Halo: Escalation, but Halo: Escalation sucked); outside of Halo Wars 2, the Banished themselves have only appeared in brief cameos at most so far, and Halo 5, if anything, had a plot that was mostly unrelated to the books that were being published up to its release (hell, the two best Halo books that year had absolutely zero relevance to 5's plot). Really, 5 was impressive in how it managed to piss off casual and hardcore lore fans alike.

Edited by UmbrellasWereAwesome on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:32:46 PM

World Whosball Champion 1945-1991
KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#273: Jul 26th 2020 at 9:48:13 AM

Halo ran into a problem where once 343 took over they went to work trying to consolidate all the EU material and lore into a more coherent whole. The earlier games were designed primarily with the background material very distant to the main games, and in fact the primary story itself is very streamlined and self-contained. Halo 4 was very clearly a change from all of that by trying to expand the setting, as The Infinity was a major part of the ad campaign and they even made a miniseries/movie Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn to help synergize the EU material into the games themselves (Lasky came off especially good in both the movie and game, so even if you didn't see the movie you were not at a disadvantage). Halo 4 then included Spartan Ops as a continuation of the main campaign through episodic adventures, I actually really enjoyed that approach but I think it was more costly than they intended and much of that story ended up finished in the novels and comics. The biggest change from the Bungie era EU is that the Forerunners were clearly intended to be Advanced Ancient Humans, hence why Chief is called Reclaimer, only humans can properly utilize Forerunner systems and why the Ark portal was on Earth.

But then Halo 5 came out and I think almost every gamer recognized how the background material and ad campaign was at complete odds with the actual story of the game. This might have been through radical changes made late in development or an attempt to hide the fact that Cortana was the new Big Bad, but there was no mystery to Master Chiefs actions like the trailers implied. It's nice to have a more carefully developed story, and as I said Halo 4 did that rather well, but Halo 5 ran face first into problems with a focus on lore building and fulfilling fan wishlist items (we get to play as Blue Team, visit the Sanghelli homeworld, see a colony that was previously glassed, help the Arbiter fight off the last of the Covenant) versus actually having a story.

Edited by KJMackley on Jul 26th 2020 at 9:48:39 AM

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#274: Jul 26th 2020 at 12:18:50 PM

More a collection of set-pieces rather than a coherent story.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#275: Jul 26th 2020 at 5:10:31 PM

There's a new skull in Halo Master Chief Collection for Halo 3. It's called Acrophobic (The Corps: Issuing rifles AND wings!) and you gotta beat the current challenges to unlock it immediately. (Gotta hurry, the challenge lasts two more days from now.) The challenge being you gotta kill 343 flying enemies (Drones, Banshees, Phantoms, Sentinels) on Halo 3 in either Normal, Heroic or Legendary campaigns.

What does it do? It gives the Master Chief the power of Pan-Cam flight of sorts. Jump then while airborne jump again it'll propel you forward faster and faster in a flying motion. You can control how to fly. Yes it does go fast enough you can suicide if you hit something at speed. No it doesn't appear to damage enemies (then again I didn't hit any trying it out).

No it doesn't circumvent all the Invisible Walls marking the level boundaries nor does it eliminate the kill barriers set up in places. So no new vacations near as I can tell. Though you can easily reach the edges of or inside of things you couldn't before but weren't prohibited from doing. (I managed to get inside a Phantom a few times trying it out.)


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