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The Uncle Tom Stigma

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joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#76: Oct 17th 2011 at 11:03:56 PM

Tomu@I have lived a middle class life with a divorced mom and dad since three.I was in my opinion always taken cared of by them and they tended to shelter me a bit.The funny thing is they both were Democrats on a moderate scale.

My mom is so Christian that she inspired my faith as a child.I know everyone who has found out I came out of the closet as a Republican will just give me the stare and later just accept it.However,I still hope that it remains that reaction and not Al Sharpton will have my pitcure on his dartboard.

This poem is how I feel about my Black heritage and I once had to rehearse a part of it when I was younger: http://www.angelfire.com/la2/jacquie/Back.html

edited 17th Oct '11 11:09:39 PM by joyflower

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#77: Oct 17th 2011 at 11:12:44 PM

@Beholderess; the problem is that they might not actually see how it can be a disadvantage to them. The poor man tends to vote like he's a rich man because the rich man has been throwing all these arguments at him about what will hurt him. So the poor man/gay/whatever votes against what would really benefit them because they've been convinced somehow that it's the right thing to do.

I wouldn't attack their ethics, no, but I would question greatly whatever logic it is they're using to make their decisions.

sketch162000 Since: Nov, 2010
#78: Oct 17th 2011 at 11:21:40 PM

@Beholderess The ethical part comes from the fact that one's support of a certain policy does not just affect him/her alone, but also his/her community as a whole. Solidarity is important, especially if you are a minority. To risk the welfare of the rest of your community just because you fail to see how similar you are shows a big lack of empathy, while not exactly morally reprehensible.

BTW, I like reading your posts. I hear Fluttershy's voice in my head [/off-topic]

edited 17th Oct '11 11:22:35 PM by sketch162000

feotakahari Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer from Looking out at the city Since: Sep, 2009
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
#79: Oct 18th 2011 at 12:01:49 AM

One point I'd like to make: you may not share one community with someone, but you're guaranteed to share another—planet Earth. Your choices shouldn't just be about protecting yourself. They should be about protecting the communities of your friends, and your colleagues, and your classmates, and the people you ride the bus with . . .

In other words, don't vote black or vote white. Vote for making people's lives better, regardless of whether they look like you.

edited 18th Oct '11 12:02:22 AM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#80: Oct 18th 2011 at 5:27:08 AM

[up] Rather, vote for advancing your personal liberty and the standard of living of the class you're a part of. tongue

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
MRDA1981 Tyrannicidal Maniac from Hell (London), UK. Since: Feb, 2011
Tyrannicidal Maniac
#81: Oct 18th 2011 at 5:30:58 AM

[up]What if the two clash?

Enjoy the Inferno...
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#82: Oct 18th 2011 at 5:58:24 AM

Toss a coin. Do a costs/benefits analysis. Anything that isn't just cowering about having to make an actual decision.

SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#83: Oct 18th 2011 at 6:00:08 AM

[up][up] When would they clash? It's not like civil liberties and social liberalization hurt the working class's bottom line.

edited 18th Oct '11 6:00:33 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#84: Oct 18th 2011 at 6:00:46 AM

Well, it harms someone's somewhere.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#85: Oct 18th 2011 at 6:28:11 AM

Is it sad that upon looking at the title of the thread, my initial thought was that it was a reference to our resident Toms on the forum?

The Dems have always been the party of most minorities, since the party generally looked out for their interests (particularly in neing able to actually integrate with the host society if they're FO Bs). Because the GOP, out of economic policy's that may or may not be alright on their own, in practice tend to shut out minorities in favor of the status quo. Thus to go to the GOP is often seen (rightly or wrongly) to mean you care less for your minority and its plight and act very much like minorities did back when their rights were far more...restrained. Mind, this opinion is one of a non-Black/Hispanic minority of the United States, but there you go.

Of course, I'm no Dem either, but thats more to do with policies outside the scope of this topic. But this topic is also one of the reasons I'll never be of the GOP either.

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#86: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:31:41 AM

[up]I am going to call Critical Reasearch Failure on that one.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121856786326834083.html

The Democrats would the conservative party of yesteryear until Franklin D.Roosevelt came along.Also don't forget about Andrew Jackson and the Cherokees.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#87: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:39:41 AM

The dems used to be the solid south, but then they decided "Hey, let's !@#$ dat shit and be the party of the civil rights movement."

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#88: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:44:54 AM

Tomu@That reminds me that when my Nana(my dad's mother)finally got her first house;the news of JFK getting shot was reported at the same time.I still wonder what would have happened if he didn't get shot would the civil rights tooken a different course.

http://www.oaoa.com/articles/doubt-73559-black-congressional.html

This could explain a lot why I kinda of am against some of the liberal policies.But don't worry if I ever get rich I am going to make people happy and do foster care like my grandma.

edited 18th Oct '11 7:47:16 AM by joyflower

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#89: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:55:34 AM

Taking the "stop whining" speech as actually being "stop whining" is disingenuous at best. That speech was "It's never just complaining that affects change, it is actual action. It's yes WE can, not yes I can. You have to do it with me."

Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#90: Oct 18th 2011 at 11:04:20 AM

the problem is that they might not actually see how it can be a disadvantage to them. The poor man tends to vote like he's a rich man because the rich man has been throwing all these arguments at him about what will hurt him. So the poor man/gay/whatever votes against what would really benefit them because they've been convinced somehow that it's the right thing to do.
People who vote against their own interest confuse this one. However, this one cannot fully accept the assumption that we can always objectively say what is in someone's interest. It is one thing when people vote for policy that would harm them when they don't think it would. That is a foolishness and mistake. But what about those who have a different set of priorities and know fully well what they are getting? For example, a poor person that honestly thinks that welfare is an undeserved leeching off, even though supporting such position economically harms him/her? A gay person who does not think that gays should have equal rights with straights? Someone who supports conservative politics because social conservatism aligns with their values, even though they do not share that stance on economical issues?

The ethical part comes from the fact that one's support of a certain policy does not just affect him/her alone, but also his/her community as a whole. Solidarity is important, especially if you are a minority. To risk the welfare of the rest of your community just because you fail to see how similar you are shows a big lack of empathy, while not exactly morally reprehensible.

BTW, I like reading your posts. I hear Fluttershy's voice in my head [/off-topic]

Ah, but this one has to wonder again just why person owes any loyalty to the people who happen to share their skin colour to begin with. Most policies harm some part of society while benefiting some other part. Why one must automatically align with any "community" in particular? Isn't the whole point of combating racism is to not make person's life determined by what colour of skin they happen to have?

Also, this one is honoured (blushes)

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
secretist Maria Holic from Ame no Kisaki Since: Feb, 2010
#91: Oct 18th 2011 at 11:07:40 AM

[up][up][up] Are you referring to the fact Lyndon Johnson became president because Kennedy died instead of the usual way of waiting for John F Kennedy to serve out his term, run for reelection, get reelected, serve out his second term, and then (LBJ can) run (for President), and get elected to be president?

edited 18th Oct '11 11:12:45 AM by secretist

TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#92: Oct 18th 2011 at 1:08:10 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up]

Most non-white minorites (that aren't black) only came into this country after the Dems became progressive, so no. Its not critical research failure as you describe.

edited 18th Oct '11 1:08:23 PM by FFShinra

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#93: Oct 18th 2011 at 4:50:07 PM

Well, the Civil Rights Movement is unique in that it had bipartisan presidential support, in the form of tentative backing by both Eisenhower and JFK, and then full backing by LBJ.

Although I still think Eisenhower has a fantastic crowning moment of awesome in the form of his 101st Airborne Division and the nationalization of the entire 10,000-man Arkansas National Guard to enforce Brown vs. Board of Education.

The best fuck off to racism ever performed by an American. cool

edited 18th Oct '11 4:52:31 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
sketch162000 Since: Nov, 2010
#94: Oct 18th 2011 at 6:40:24 PM

Isn't the whole point of combating racism is to not make person's life determined by what colour of skin they happen to have?

Of course. But not challenging "Uncle Toms" results in a net loss to the goal of overcoming racism in modern society, which is still rife with structural racism and inequality, anyway. The proverbial "Uncle Tom" would be opposed to politics that were meant to alleviate that inequality, thus throwing the ideal of a fair society into jeopardy. Appealing to racial equality by defending "Uncle Toms" is kind of useless if it ends up hindering that equality in the end. Two steps forward, three steps back.

NomadicLurker Shall not be known from a place Since: May, 2011
Shall not be known
#95: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:32:01 PM

I have a problem with the epithet "Uncle Tom" (that doesn't only stem from the fact that I have had it lobbed at me by several classmates, along with the "acting white" accusations).

It's been a very long time since I read the book, but if I remember correctly, wasn't Uncle Tom the character who stayed on the plantation to help other slaves escape? That means he was actually helping his race, and sacrificing his own freedom to do so. How did this heroic character get twisted like that?

edited 18th Oct '11 7:32:41 PM by NomadicLurker

Nothing to see here.
joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#96: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:33:48 PM

[up]I think it was the Minstrel shows that derailed Uncle Tom from being what he was portrayed in the book into a more subserviant character who really was more platable to the white crowd at that time.

edited 18th Oct '11 7:35:36 PM by joyflower

NomadicLurker Shall not be known from a place Since: May, 2011
Shall not be known
#97: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:39:37 PM

That's...a hell of an Adaptation Decay.

Nothing to see here.
joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#98: Oct 18th 2011 at 7:40:50 PM

[up]What do you expect it was at a time when the Klan was a respected organization.

Beholderess from Moscow Since: Jun, 2010
#99: Oct 18th 2011 at 8:57:48 PM

The proverbial "Uncle Tom" would be opposed to politics that were meant to alleviate that inequality, thus throwing the ideal of a fair society into jeopardy
This one is not exactly comfortable with dictating what individuals, on the basis of having certain skin colour, should be allowed to do in the name of ideal of society.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#100: Oct 18th 2011 at 9:03:18 PM

People are allowed to do whatever, but that doesn't mean that any given action won't be perceived (rightly or wrongly) as naive or destructive.


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