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whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#26: Oct 7th 2011 at 9:08:15 PM

USAF, You make it sound like the USA is the guy who walks into a pub, sees the first woman who can breathe and goes "Yes, she'll do tonight"grin

Dutch Lesbian
PhilippeO Since: Oct, 2010
#27: Oct 7th 2011 at 9:09:00 PM

Uh, no. there also stupid CIA removing mossadegh during 1953 and helping Shah torturing people afterwards.

Saudis also have problem with Israel. they might not militarily, but Saudis supported maddrassah and mosque is often the most anti- American and Anti-Israel in various muslim nations.

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#28: Oct 7th 2011 at 9:10:26 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations USAF@Actually from I read from the article it seems like it was more when the Iranian Revolution came in that the Iran grew hatred for America.

edited 7th Oct '11 9:17:41 PM by joyflower

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#29: Oct 7th 2011 at 9:14:51 PM

You make it sound like the USA is the guy who walks into a pub, sees the first woman who can breathe and goes "Yes, she'll do tonight"

Frankly, I don't like either one, but I'll take whoever isn't going to attempt to actively kill me. I would rather leave the whole region to sort it out itself, but...

Right, the Iranian Revolution wasn't pretty, but from the way you were describing it I (wrongly, apparently) thought they might have given up on it.

How naive of me...

I am now known as Flyboy.
SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#30: Oct 8th 2011 at 5:47:50 AM

They're regimes that practice stoning. Apparently, the civilized world is willing to tolerate that.

Shame on the civilized world: We should have shipped a metric fuck-ton of Stingers and M16s to the Green Movement in 2009: Civil war is preferrable to tyranny, and no expense is too much to see the Ayatollahs lined up against a wall and thoroughly worked with an M60.

WARNING: NSFW!

edited 8th Oct '11 7:37:01 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#31: Oct 8th 2011 at 8:35:12 AM

I still say the people are genuinely happier under the Saudis, even if the Saudis are not up to WESTERN standards. Iranians haven't been happy since their current president took power. I'll change my stance if the Dinner Jacket and his faction among the RG ever stands down from election...or if the Supreme Leader gets some balls and removes him. Then Iran will probably be better off. But for now, the Saudis are better.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#32: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:24:08 AM

...there was a popular revolution beginning in one of these countries in '09 and we ignored it?

...

Fuck.

I am now known as Flyboy.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#33: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:33:11 AM

^ Where were you? Obama caught fucktons of flak from both sides for completely ignoring the Iranian protests. It's one of the defining moments (the other the lack of response to the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island in November last year) that firmly cemented his image of "President Failure" in the eyes of many folks.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#34: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:36:54 AM

Where were you?

Freshman in high school. AKA a little shit who didn't care about anything past his own 2x2 foot bubble.

And, wow, fail. Perhaps that's why we're being proactive about the Arab Spring. Learned from the mistakes, at least, but, too little, too late, for Iran. I think they're going to have to reform themselves, because they're much too entrenched as a government for a revolution...

edited 8th Oct '11 10:46:32 AM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#35: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:41:35 AM

USAF: The Green revolution has been going since 09 according to my Tehranan friend.

Dutch Lesbian
SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#36: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:48:16 AM

We've certainly got the means for surveillance: How about taking the Iranian government down with (conventional, but pretty damn big) sucker-punch missile strikes when their Parliament is in session or some jazz like that?

Make sure you get Dinner Jacket and Turban Haji at the same time, then it's all a matter of supplying the secularist kids with as much weaponry as they could have possibly desired.

edited 8th Oct '11 10:49:44 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#37: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:50:04 AM

...because it would probably set of a geopolitical powder key and cause a large chunk of Middle Eastern countries to attack our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as Israel?

I mean, we'd probably still win, but we can't really afford that at the moment, both monetarily and in terms of the lives that would be lost...

I am now known as Flyboy.
joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#38: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:50:36 AM

[up][up]Is your answer to everything violent revolution?

edited 8th Oct '11 10:50:53 AM by joyflower

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#39: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:51:34 AM

Obama only got shit for it from the American right. The Iranians themselves didn't care as much...

SavageHeathen Pro-Freedom Fanatic from Somewhere Since: Feb, 2011
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
#40: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:54:37 AM

@Joyflower: Not at all: Violent revolution won't fix peak oil, the Seahawks losing, climate change or drought. Oppression, however, is quite handily fixed by it.

@USAF: Whatch that video again, then tell me massacring the Ayatollahs ain't a righteous cause worthy of the cost.

edited 8th Oct '11 11:03:07 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#41: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:56:05 AM

Worth the number of people we and the Iranians would lose that don't deserve to be killed?

Not... really, no.

I am now known as Flyboy.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#42: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:56:09 AM

Obama only got shit for it from the American right.

It was both sides. You didn't hear the bitching from the likes of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid but quite a few Democrats were cheesed off at that inaction.

The liberal media like CNN largely swept the protests under the rug as best they could. (Though amusingly the BBC and Fox reported the whole thing in stark contrast to those networks.)

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#43: Oct 8th 2011 at 10:57:53 AM

The reason why is was largly ignored was that Michael Jackson died that year which was on most of the major news programs.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#44: Oct 8th 2011 at 11:02:30 AM

FUCKING HELL!

How did I not realize that? Wow, talk about an unforeseen turn of historical events. Megastar dies... and further obscures American care for anything past the shores...

I am now known as Flyboy.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#45: Oct 8th 2011 at 1:18:29 PM

@Tom The right did it more than the left and even if they didn't, my point still stands that the Iranian protesters themselves were more understanding of Obama's reasons than the American politicians were.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#46: Oct 8th 2011 at 1:23:36 PM

What reasons? Obama had none to ignore them. That was the root of why he caught so much flak.

RadicalTaoist scratching at .8, just hopin' from the #GUniverse Since: Jan, 2001
scratching at .8, just hopin'
#47: Oct 8th 2011 at 2:35:26 PM

You honestly can't think of reasons to not get involved with Iran's internal dissent?

I support the hell out of the Green Revolutionaries and hope they can eventually turn the Guard to their side, but I can still think of many reasons they should not rely on American support for this.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#48: Oct 8th 2011 at 9:21:40 PM

Tom, you don't get to speak for Iranians. They do. And they would not have welcomed American military intervention at all. However, that is largely off topic.

The discussion here is whether Iran is better than Saudi Arabia on politics and human rights. People in Iran are unhappy, in the sense that the guy they thought was worse got voted in under dubious means. That's not the same as unhappy in Saudi Arabia, wherein which it's more like, I support the current monarchy because I don't feel like going through the trouble of getting killed by secret police to voice dissent.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#49: Oct 9th 2011 at 5:17:14 AM

^ Who said we would have intervened militarily? Political solidarity with the protesters would have done just fine. (Despite the fact that toppling Iran is well within our current capabilities.)

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#50: Oct 9th 2011 at 6:01:19 AM

[up]

Who said we would have intervened militarily? Political solidarity with the protesters would have done just fine.

You've got a reputation for Violence Being The Only Option.

Despite the fact that toppling Iran is well within our current capabilities.

Just don't expect it to be easy — the Air Defence and the IAF (especially their F-14A Tomcats) will make life difficult (it might be old kit, but it probably will not be easy to defeat). Don't underestimate the Iranians*

.

And somehow, I don't think the USA has got either the Reserves (Military or Financial or Political) to pull it off...

edited 9th Oct '11 6:05:06 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

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