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Malkavian What is this from madness Since: Jan, 2001
What is this
#151: Nov 11th 2011 at 10:53:16 PM

Perhaps this was a bad idea to bring up, especially considering how hazy my memory of that game is. (I don't even remember if the wife 'rescuing' is in one or two)

So to use other sexist games that are much worse than Arkham City let's say Dead Or Alive or The Witcher or Bloodrayne.

"Everyone wants an answer, don't they?... I hate things with answers." — Grant Morrison
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#152: Nov 12th 2011 at 1:52:06 AM

That article was a bit uptight, wasn't it?

If I may be so bold, then I would suggest that Bloodrayne isn't even a good enough game to bother criticizing. The sexual stuff in those games was naught but a marketing tactic.

She did have a comic book, but game-based comics are rarely as popular as the source material, so I don't even know enough about that to say if they were as bad as the games were. Or as the movies.

Do not obey in advance.
Malkavian What is this from madness Since: Jan, 2001
What is this
#153: Nov 12th 2011 at 5:45:27 AM

Whether or not something is good isn't quite as important to it's impact as much as whether it's successful. See Twilight. Bloodrayne was at least successful enough for a sequel.

In any case, the article definitely was seven steps on the nasty part. The thing about Arkham City isn't that it's actively sexist but that it shows sexist trends that really need to go away.

And needed a cohesive plot.

"Everyone wants an answer, don't they?... I hate things with answers." — Grant Morrison
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#154: Jan 26th 2012 at 6:39:31 PM

I think that people are focusing on the symptoms rather than the disease. The problem isn't just that superhero comics — which is what I think we're all talking about here anyway — are sexist, it's that superhero comics are badly written. They feature weak plots, tropes that require enormous suspension of disbelief, cookie-cutter stereotype characters, samey and wooden dialogue, and require a knowledge of continuity that the average new reader just isn't going to have.

The reason I read barely any cape books anymore isn't because of sexism and shitty female characters — or at least that isn't the sole reason — it's because of tropes like Superman Stays Out of Gotham, Reed Richards Is Useless, Kryptonite Is Everywhere, Thou Shalt Not Kill, Weaksauce Weakness, Secret Identity...etc. I find it harder and harder to suspend disbelief for such contrived plot devices as I get older and read more and more varied fiction, including more varied comics.

Look at Rosalba "Fritz" Martinez from Gilbert's side of Love And Rockets. To describe her character in the most basic terms, you could say "a chesty, self-centered, promiscuous woman with a lisp." Besides the lisp, that could also describe any number of badly-written (and likely badly-drawn) female characters in super comics. But anyone who reads Love And Rockets knows better. Fritz is an incredibly complex character, maybe one of the most complex in the series. She has mood swings, insecurities, her first and only true love is a fat man with a "barely functioning choad." She's bisexual to the point of almost being a Lipstick Lesbian. She has a gun fetish that even I see as unhealthy — my own love of guns and multitude of personal weapons notwithstanding. She truly loves her nieces, and it really shows. She's a self-conscious exhibitionist. Men often are attracted to her not because of her enormous breasts, but because of her baby-soft skin, her high, soft lisp, or her hair. Or even her personality.

I could go on and on about the female characters of Gilbert Hernandez, but you get the picture. There are countless panels of her wearing little to no clothing, graphic sex scenes, and other scenes that would be just meaningless fanservice in costume books. But in Love And Rockets, such scenes are always used to advance the plot.

Gilbert Hernandez is a good writer. He can take a promiscuous female character who's frequently naked and has improbable (but still certainly true-to-life) proportions, and make her into one of his most well-rounded and important characters. A bad writer is a bad writer, whether he's writing about a slutty alien girl or a muscle-bound action retard.

Don't just stop buying superhero books. Stop buying bad comics. Buy creator-owned series, like Scalped, Criminal, League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, or the aforementioned Love And Rockets. Buy good comics, and you'll see fewer and fewer examples of flat, sexist female (and male) characters.

edited 26th Jan '12 6:40:15 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Maridee from surfside Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#155: Jan 31st 2012 at 10:28:01 AM

It's just not that easy, though. Just not buying bad comics doesn't change the essential problem - that women's stories just aren't seen to be as important as men's stories.

And what about books like RHATO, where the urge not to support sexism has to fight the urge to support Jason Todd? How do you choose?

ophelia, you're breaking my heart
Oufour REVENGEANCE from Katorga-12 Since: Mar, 2011
REVENGEANCE
#156: Jan 31st 2012 at 10:58:46 AM

Actually Red Hood and the Outlaws has strayed away from the whole 'starfire is a goldfish' thing rather quickly and gotten really good to boot. It's more of a vertigo book then a Batman book now.

“My body is ready. I’m gonna take your names, take your ass, and then we’ll be making games”. - Reggie Fils-Aime, CEO of Nintendo America
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#157: Jan 31st 2012 at 11:17:36 AM

Not the point, though. Let's assume that the content remained unchanged. What do you choose?

For an example, there's a stigma in Hollywood that says female superheroes don't sell, thanks to the Elektra and Catwoman flops. No, the stimga isn't that "crappy movies don't sell", but that female superheroes are the problem. In other words, voting with your wallet doesn't always work.

edited 31st Jan '12 11:18:51 AM by KingZeal

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#158: Jan 31st 2012 at 3:21:38 PM

The point was buy creator owned books and forget Jason Todd if I read correctly. That superhero comics, especially the ludicrously long ran ones just tend to be bad. Disagree if you want but it seems silly to make arguments that aren't on point.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Martello Hammer of the Pervs from Black River, NY Since: Jan, 2001
Hammer of the Pervs
#159: Jan 31st 2012 at 7:10:09 PM

[up]Pretty much, yeah.

I'm not even talking about voting with your wallet. I'm saying that if you're incensed by sexism in comics that are just badly written in general, then don't buy them. Buy good comics that have nothing to do with superheroes. There's more to the medium than capes, costumes, and the most unrealistic tropes and storylines this side of magical schoolgirl maid ninja robot anime.

And then there are even some good super books. But not a lot. Immortal Iron Fist and Daughters of the Dragon come to mind. So does the Palmiotti/Gray/Conner Power Girl, and of course Watchmen. That's from just looking to the left at my three bookshelves full of trade paperbacks and hardcovers. There's not a whole lot of cape books in there.

What I'm looking at are shelves full of Hellboy, Elephantmen, Blue Estate, The Walking Dead, Scalped, The Metabarons, The Incal, Love And Rockets, Atomic Robo...I could keep going on. None of those are superhero books, and most of them have female characters that are three dimensional and don't fit the sexist super book sterotypes at all. And they're all fucking good.

edited 31st Jan '12 7:15:15 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#160: Jan 31st 2012 at 8:15:24 PM

Again, that's assuming that the problem you're rebelling against is more important than the thing you enjoy. I mean, it could be that some people like superheroes, for all their faults. It also overlooks the problem that most comic book fans are not going to know what a "good" book is until after it's out, and it also overlooks the fact that not buying a book does not immediately tell a company what they did wrong.

There isn't a single mainstream industry in existence that doesn't do ridiculous or questionable crap. That doesn't mean the bad they do offsets the parts people like.

I mean, you can name books off your bookshelf which you find "good", and your opinion is fine. It doesn't mean everyone should only buy stuff you agree with. And hell, Power Girl? Didn't Cracked just do an article TODAY about her being one of the most offendingly sexist characters in comics? And though no one can deny that Watchmen is good, don't people to this day argue that Alan Moore has inherently sexist overtones and a preoccupation with rape?

edited 31st Jan '12 8:31:56 PM by KingZeal

Maridee from surfside Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#161: Jan 31st 2012 at 8:24:43 PM

And it doesn't mean that all superhero books are bad, either. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown's runs as Batgirl, for instance. Captain Marvel. Alias. Runaways.

Superhero books can be better than they are. Just cause so many of them are crap doesn't mean that all of them are irredeemable.

ophelia, you're breaking my heart
Oufour REVENGEANCE from Katorga-12 Since: Mar, 2011
REVENGEANCE
#162: Jan 31st 2012 at 9:49:12 PM

Seems to be an awful lot of hate on super heroes here. I mean people haven't even mentioned the recent Batman or Spider-man comics, both of which are fantastic. Not to mention Animal man, Swamp Thing, Carnage USA, Venom...

“My body is ready. I’m gonna take your names, take your ass, and then we’ll be making games”. - Reggie Fils-Aime, CEO of Nintendo America
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#163: Feb 1st 2012 at 12:51:54 PM

The only hate on Superhero books I've seen on page seven at least is Martello and Martello says they aren't all bad, just that they tend to be. That I agree with.

I don't think anything is inherently wrong with superheroe characters or the superhero genre. I think the problem is that their comics as of now are crap shoots. Captain America/Fantastic Four/ect does well for awhile but how long can you count on it? I have my favorite Spider-man stories but there are also Spider-man stories I don't want to think about again. There have been more Spider-man plots derailed by crossover events, writers with nostalgia goggles or mad editors than I can count and speaking of nostalgia, I look back at what I thought were the good days and see for the most part, they were just as bad.

I've never read a really bad Thor book, but I rarely find long hair's stuff to be that good either. I've never read a Hulk that was exceptionally terrible but that's probably only because I knew to avoid things like red guy ahead of time. Who knows, I might have picked up more marvel books if most of them were not covered in skrulls, featuring the illum/cabal or wanking on Thanos yet again.

I think the inherent problem is the tangled, never concluding, "shared universe" these works are all forced into and the constant shuffling of writers. There are alternatives, creator owned stuff the most obvious. Hellboy isn't any more or less Superhero than Hulk or Thor but I don't have to worry about Hellboy getting dropped on the moon with his own hammer by some part-time writer's pet character. I don't have to worry about Hellboy's character development getting wiped away because some new guy finds him more interesting that way. I don't need to keep track of an increasing number of contrived female Hellboy knockoffs that rose from a licensing dispute upstairs. There is less of a chance someone is going to poison Hellboy's wife for a single storyline that will be stretched through six issues or that some artist is going to stop buy and fill the first two pages of Hellboy with his sexual fantasies.

You can argue good things were salvaged but in the meantime there was crap. The shared universe style needs a readily available alternative and creator owned stuff is one. They may have their own problems but they also have more variety and consistency. As stated, Hulk and Thor aren't really superheroes but if you read them you're going to see superheroes because they are the majority of the shared continuity.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#164: Feb 1st 2012 at 2:12:50 PM

A shared universe is both a blessing and a curse, to be sure. But, I fell in love with comic books in the first place because of the dynamics of the shared universe. My favorite characters at this point in my comics career are Kon-El and Nightwing—neither of those characters would exist if not for a shared universe and/or crossover events. (Superboy needed The Death Of Superman to come to be, and Nightwing wouldn't exist if Robin hadn't been part of the Teen Titans. There's other personal examples I can use, but I'm sure it's different for everybody.

I'm not saying that a shared universe doesn't need work and won't inherently come with retarded problems. I'm mostly saying that the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument only partially works. It takes a lot more factors than that to fix things, including a certain amount of luck.

TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#165: Feb 2nd 2012 at 5:18:47 AM

Oh, yeah, about that article that cried "Sexism!" in Batman Arkham City...having played the game myself, I think the article is exaggerating the whole B!+C# thing. I mean, okay, sure, Catwoman gets referred to as this, but she did try to steal stuff from Two Face. It's not like she's being called this for no reason other than that she's a woman.

The game also takes place in one big prison full of hard cases and other unsavoury types. It's even stated that a number of them have not seen a woman in years! These types love to throw derogatory and offensive terms around. It could be said that the article fell victim to Reality Is Unrealistic.

I'm not saying that it's okay to throw a word like "B!+C#" around. It could have been worse. She could have been called a W#0re or a certain four-letter-word beginning with "C".

There's always a worse insult!

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
Maridee from surfside Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#166: Feb 2nd 2012 at 7:31:48 AM

Part of the issue with that, tho, was the overall tone. None of the ladies got nearly as much respect as the men did. For all that Catwoman was advertised, she barely did anything competently or relevant to the plot. She didn't even steal anything. Harley got no kudos for effectively running Joker's operation while he was sick from the henches or Batman, and Talia got fridged. And let's not even begin with why she got less advertising than Catwoman even though she was more integral to the plot - the Ra's al Ghul spoiler wasn't left unspoiled for very long. Even Oracle disappeared for no in-game reason at the beginning of the game, except for the meta one of including Alfred. And if you're going to include Tim, why not include Cass?

Compare with Penguin, Bane, Riddler, Two-Face, Strange - all of whom were depicted in positions of power, and given respect from the henches. You don't hear them calling Penguin a comparative swear word, and certainly not to the extent that bitch gets used. Granted, neither Ivy, Catwoman, or Harley are traditional mob bosses - but Joker has to have recruited his henchmen from somewhere, and even Catwoman needs a crew every now and again.

...And I wouldn't assume that simply because they're henchmen, that means they're all necessarily going to fall over any woman that comes their way. The game isn't realistic, by default - the writers can't give every hench the amount of detail and and backstory every human being has. Arkham City isn't about realistically portraying the prison system, just as Two-Face isn't about realistically portraying the reality of DID. It's about being Batman and punching crime in the face. So I don't think it really adds anything to the experience.

It's not that the rest of the game wasn't good - it's that it could be much better.

...Besides, given the extent bitch was used? That's just lazy writing. Vary it up a bit, geeze.

edited 2nd Feb '12 7:35:27 AM by Maridee

ophelia, you're breaking my heart
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#167: Feb 2nd 2012 at 8:42:11 AM

I dunno. A scantily-clad, leather-wearing woman who is well-known for being romantically involved with your greatest foe strutting around a prison filled with garden-variety, uneducated thugs? I thought the word "bitch" was pretty appropriate.

Of all the many complaints to be made about sexism in comic-related media, that strikes me as the weakest.

edited 2nd Feb '12 8:42:33 AM by KingZeal

TiggersAreGreat Since: Mar, 2011
#168: Feb 2nd 2012 at 10:29:55 AM

One major example of sexism is how men will work for men, but they refuse to work for women. That's a situation that pops up in fiction and is sadly a Truth in Television.

With that said...Harley Quinn, in charge? <pause> [lol]! I laugh out loud because I have always viewed her as The Scrappy! She has a high-pitched Joisey-accented voice, which is the Most Annoying Sound I have ever had the displeasure of hearing! She has a perpetually childish, happy attitude that I just find beyond creepy!

Other than Batman Arkham City, I have never seen her in a leadership position! Really, I don't think she has half the capability to come up with plans, charisma, and intelligence needed to be a leader, unlike The Joker!

Speaking of The Joker, another thing I have never liked about Harley is this Mad Love thing she's got going on with Joker. She practically kisses his butt every chance she gets, which is Squick in every possible way! Their relationship is very much loaded with Domestic Abuse, like the kind that happens in Real Life. She has broken up with him a number of times and has gotten back together with him a number of times, which probably prompted readers to ask Why Would Anyone Take Him Back?? That sort of situation is certainly Truth In Television, and yet I feel obliged to ask you guys this: how many times can the cycle continue before you completely lose your sympathy for the abused person?

All the points listed above is why I do not like or respect Harley Quinn and therefore consider her The Scrappy. At least the people who made the game realized that people like me exist, and happily engaged in Take That, Scrappy!, with thugs revealing how much they hate her guts and annoying voice, the Riddler referring to her as a dummy and stupid, and that challenge where you shoot 12 Harley Quinn heads! Oh, Revenge is so sweet! evil grin

I will say, though, that Harley has gone a long way to being Rescued from the Scrappy Heap, since she finally realized her relationship with The Joker was unhealthy and left him for good as of the New 52 relaunch!

edited 2nd Feb '12 10:31:46 AM by TiggersAreGreat

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#169: Feb 2nd 2012 at 11:19:38 AM

how many times can the cycle continue before you completely lose your sympathy for the abused person?

That in itself is an interesting question that makes the relationship compelling to some degree.

Also, Harley Quinn is by NO means a Scrappy, unless we're talking to individual people. The fandom, in general, loves the hell out of her.

edited 2nd Feb '12 11:21:28 AM by KingZeal

Maridee from surfside Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#170: Feb 2nd 2012 at 7:59:27 PM

[up][up][up] Also repetitive. Kinda boring. It isn't a reflection of actual prison issues, which aren't tackled anywhere in the game, but the writers' issues. I mean, seriously. What actual prison are you going to find that devotes an entire portion of the city to letting prisoners run wild?

And, besides, if you're gonna have Catwoman, she's gotta defend her turf. Why couldn't she have the East End as her base the same way Penguin has the Iceberg Lounge?

[up][up] It's really all in how you see her - which changes from person to person, writer to writer, and taste to taste. Not gonna argue personal preference.

But look at the plot facts in-game: Joker's sick and Clayface is impersonating him. How far is Joker really going to be willing to trust Clayface? Harley, on the other hand, is a devoted minion. Who would you rather have running the show? ...Remember that Joker's willingly spending time with Harley.

Off-topic, but it's gotta be said: holy crap you willingly read Suicide Squad how bad is it?

ophelia, you're breaking my heart
Oufour REVENGEANCE from Katorga-12 Since: Mar, 2011
REVENGEANCE
#171: Feb 2nd 2012 at 8:10:42 PM

Really/ You're making the "It's not realistic so it sucks" argument about a Batman game? You're making the "It's not realistic so it sucks" argument AT ALL?

Also Suicide Squad's not bad. It's not great, but it's kinda fun. Mostly because of manshark.

edited 2nd Feb '12 8:11:29 PM by Oufour

“My body is ready. I’m gonna take your names, take your ass, and then we’ll be making games”. - Reggie Fils-Aime, CEO of Nintendo America
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#172: Feb 2nd 2012 at 11:54:38 PM

Also repetitive. Kinda boring. It isn't a reflection of actual prison issues, which aren't tackled anywhere in the game, but the writers' issues. I mean, seriously. What actual prison are you going to find that devotes an entire portion of the city to letting prisoners run wild?

That doesn't even make a difference. When you buy the game, there are two concepts you need to accept: one, that a rich guy who dresses up like a bat can have a mythical ability to fight crime without grave consequences and two, that somebody had the brilliant idea of turning part of a city into a prison. You are given both of those concepts before you even pick up the game.

Whether or not the thugs' dialogue is "repetitive" or "boring" is your individual opinion and not an objective fault of the game. Forgive me if I don't find that anymore of a problem than the term "Dead nigger storage" in Pulp Fiction. People sometimes talk like that—especially when they're criminals and don't give a crap about political correctness or an extensive vocabulary.

And, besides, if you're gonna have Catwoman, she's gotta defend her turf. Why couldn't she have the East End as her base the same way Penguin has the Iceberg Lounge?

Because part of the plot was about how she pretty much wanted to get out of Arkham City? Also, I can't remember the last time the modern Catwoman had "turf" or "flunkies". She's basically been a solo-act Classy Cat-Burglar for the past 30 or so years of her portrayal.

But look at the plot facts in-game: Joker's sick and Clayface is impersonating him. How far is Joker really going to be willing to trust Clayface? Harley, on the other hand, is a devoted minion. Who would you rather have running the show? ...Remember that Joker's willingly spending time with Harley.

Clayface was part of Joker's plan. It's not like Joker trusted him to run anything. Clayface had to be in charge as part of the overall fake-out.

And Joker couldn't give less of a crap if Harley is "devoted". Part of the dynamic of their relationship is that he doesn't give her one tenth of the esteem that she thinks he does. It's a lopsided, abusive relationship. So yeah, Harley's entire reason for existing is due to sexism.

edited 2nd Feb '12 11:55:44 PM by KingZeal

Drakyndra Her with the hat from Somewhere Since: Jan, 2001
Her with the hat
#173: Feb 3rd 2012 at 4:21:57 AM

To get back to Martello's comment a little way back there, I disagree that "comments aren't sexist, they're badly written"; it's more that sexism is one facet of bad writing that shows up in comics. It's about laziness, writers who don't put the effort into developing female characters beyond disposable fanservice, and who very frequently can't be bothered trying to identify with anyone outside their own perspectives.

It's the same reason comics are so white, hetero etc.; because that's what most of the writers are, because that's how it's always been, and so few writers are willing to put in the effort to change it.

Which is why I am all for acknowledging writers who put the effort into doing something different.

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Ronnie Respect the Red Right Hand from Surrounded by Idiots Since: Jan, 2001
Respect the Red Right Hand
#174: Feb 3rd 2012 at 6:06:06 AM

Honestly, attacking a not-Christopher Nolan Batman story on the grounds of realism is Completely Missing The Point. Granted, that was precisely what Nolan did, and people loved it, but I digress.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#175: Feb 3rd 2012 at 7:06:51 AM

[up][up] Well, it goes beyond mere "effort". Comics are a medium which does not require one be academically qualified, possess a certain level of experience, or understand a particular subject matter. It's "pulp", which means that the standards required to write for it are lower than more highbrow fiction.

This is an important distinction because some novels or well-researched stories require years or even decades to finish to the author's satisfaction. That's not how comics work. They put out content, regardless of the amount of time that went into it, every X days. That means that sometimes stories will be based on what the writer is personally familiar with, what s/he enjoys themselves, what the editors tell them to write, what the fans demand or what they see in the news. While it's true that the more talented writers will usually be able to pull this off without screwing up too badly, even most of the greats have at least one or two Creator Killers.


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