Yeah, there was a time when team books had only one (utterly useless) woman, and the only female solo book was Wonder Woman. Now, with Marvel alone, we're soon to have three ongoing female solo titles and two all-female team books. And then DC's got another 4 (right?) ongoing female solo titles.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.Batwoman, Wonder Woman, Batgirl (barf), Supergirl, Catwoman, Katana, Sword Of Sorcery plus Birds Of Prey and World's finest.
Donate money to Skullgirls, get a sweet poster.I don't read DC, so that's why I forgot so many. I could only think of Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Batwoman and Supergirl.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.I'd say what the Bechdel Test proves about comics (American Super-Hero comics, anyhow) is that they're traditionally produced overwhelmingly by men for an audience that is overwhelmingly, traditionally at least, male. It'd be more relevatory in cases of material that was aimed primarily at a female audience, as in such a case it could potentially be said to reveal what society (or at least the writer) considers a woman's concerns/interests to be. Take a look at Japanese Shojo Manga, for instance, and what it's overwhelming focus says about Japan.
I'm of the opinion that American comics needs to expand it's horizons to appeal as many readers, of as many types, as possible. However, there is always the danger that by trying to appeal to everyone you'll come up with something that will appeal to no one at all. Sexism is, or course, bad, and needs to be stopped, but part of me understands the perception of a lot of fanboys that many of female readers' complaints can be summed up as "Now that I've kicked in the door of your little clubhouse, I want you to change everything around to suit me. And I'm going to keep yelling at you until you do." It's not a productive attitude and it's bad for the future of the industry, but I can see where they're coming from.
2 things about the Bechdel test. 1 is that it's a lot harder for an (action) comic to pass than it is for an (action) film or even tv episode to pass, for multiple reasons. This makes comics look worse than these other mediums, but I don't think that's really true.
2. I think it would be more useful for the Bechdel test to be compared with the reverse Bechdel test, in paticular the difference between those two numbers is the important figure. So Marvel, for instance, should aim for their output across an entire year to be as close to 0 comics as possible.
You don't want 100% of works to feature female characters talking to each other, you want that percentage to be equivalent to the percentage of works that have male characters that talk to each other.
The thing started as a piece of satire in a newspaper strip. Even accepting that it's only taken as a broad indicator I still think too much weight has been placed upon it. I think it could present a more accurate picture if it was tinkered with somewhat.
Am I a good man or a bad man?Lots of people tinker with the test for various reasons, such as trying to write a term paper that Professor Leslie Bean hasn't seen a dozen times before. There's a lot of ways you can tweak it.
- Exclude any work written pre-Bechdel. Attitudes and culture have changed in the last thirty years, and it may be unfair to include everything written since the dawn of time. Alternatively, compare the "pass rate" before and after Bechdel.
- Exclude any work where the reason it wouldn't pass is "historically, there weren't any women there" or where the story has only one character.
- Spend more time investigating why individual works do or don't pass, perhaps comparing genres or particular authors' works.
- Watch a bunch of movies or read a lot of books and see, on average, how long it takes before the movie passes (or doesn't) and why.
I'm not sure the test should be tweaked, because the test isn't about specific works in the first place. It's about trends. Context behind why specific works don't pass the test is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if this movie is set in a men's prison, or that one is about soldiers at war. Whether any given movie, or book, or whatever, is justified in not passing the test simply doesn't matter. The issue is whether fiction is moving towards balancing that out.
I think comics are making a real effort to move in that direction. And I do appreciate that. I think it's important to do that.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Yeah, it's important not to see the test as judging value. All it really does is establish, as you say, numerical facts about trends. There's nothing wrong with movies set in men's prisons or with a primarily male cast, but there IS something wrong that there are so few movies with female characters who have stuff outside of men to concern themselves with.
edited 1st Feb '13 10:11:17 PM by Robbery
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Those first two points are really obvious, the first one almost insultingly so. I think once you go into a more in depth analysis you basically leave the test behind. The last point was more what in the area of what I meant.
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But how can you see if there is a balance unless you compare it with a male version of the Bechdel test?There isn't a magic number or portion of works that should pass the test, but a balanced amount. So in the scheme of things a work based in a men's prison would be balanced out by a work set in a women's prison. And if there is more of the former than there is of the latter that's where the problem is.
edited 1st Feb '13 11:24:39 PM by C0mraid
Am I a good man or a bad man?Exclude any work where the reason it wouldn't pass is "historically, there weren't any women there" or where the story has only one character.
Isn't the disproportionate number of stories set in male-only environments worth examining too, though? Bechdel is a basic measure of women's influence and role in fiction. With that in mind, aren't stories that feature no women at all precisely part of its purview?
It's been said before and I'll say it again - the Bechdel test is a measure of aggregates, not individual works.
What's precedent ever done for us?![]()
Yeah, but that's not tinkering. That's just comparing. And it might be useful, but I'd wager that the number of works that would fail a reverse Bechdel Test would be incredibly small.
Wait Bechel test?
Two or more women, talking to each other about something that is not a man. No, boys are not a pass. Think about it. Maybe, just maybe what you see with your eyes does not make it obvious too you but check your government's census sometime. You live in a population that is predominately female. All but a so statistically small number of you that I can safely generalize about it.
Now there can be reasons for not passing it. This guy is super duper important, there are not many women around, this is a silent picture, someone is mute, there is a language barrier but unless there is not not some such justification not being able to pass the Bechel test is a sign your work is jarringly unrealistic.
We have whole trope pages, you fail religious studies forever, Magical Negro, Oireland, Improbable Age, Pink Bishojo Ghetto, Informed Poverty the fact is unlikely human interaction can break the Willing Suspension of Disbelief as much as human bodies being tread like objects Made of Plasticine or human tools operating on slow electricity. As simple an observation as the Most Common Superpower.
What exactly is Captain Marvel justification? It either has one or it does not.
Edit: The book should not even exist, Monica Rambeu is still alive and active so she should be Captain Marvel.
edited 3rd Feb '13 4:28:36 PM by Cider
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Captain Marvel's justification for what? If you're asking about its justification for not passing the Bechdel Test, it's passed the test. If you're asking its justification for existing, it's because Carol is a great character who fully deserves her own solo title, even if she's had bad luck with keeping solo titles going in the past.
As for Monica, great as she is, Carol deserves the Captain Marvel name far more than she does. For one thing, she actually knew the original Mar-Vell. She knows what the name represents, and has spent years living up to that standard. For another thing, she's actually a frigging Captain. She may be the only "Captain ___" who's actually earned that rank. Captain America's repeatedly made comments about the fact that he never actually held that rank in the Army. Monica was a police lieutenant. Most of the others who have Captain in their name just took it because it sounds cool. Carol was an actual Air Force Captain. In fact, she was a Colonel when she resigned from the Air Force, which is even higher than Captain.
Also, Monica isn't still active. She's apparently a fisher right now. She called Carol in to help with a bunch of boats that had gone missing.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.Monica was a ship captain of a harbor patrol. She earned the captain title as much as anyone.
Furthermore, becoming Captain Marvel is a step down from being the Binary Warbird in my view. Carol had developed her own independent legacy, Captain Marvel made his mark on the setting but events moved on, that was a good thing. The son, daughter and skrull were tolerable enough but shoehorning an established character who became something far more interesting under his mantle is just beating a dead horse. If Marvel really wants to keep the licensing thing they should have just stuck with Monica. Putting her back to her patrol boat days, Superheroes and law enforcement go together right? Make her a civilian fisher captain with superpowers even. Carol could easily have her own book around her own built up history without being demoted to the cancer guy's role.
As for the Bechel test, my presumption was that the entire argument was over Captain Marvel passing it or not and why anyone should be surprised if it or any other work did not, along with an assertion that the test was useless, in the way All Men Are Perverts and A Man Is Not A Virgin are worthless observations.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackWell, Captain is certainly a step down from Colonel. But regardless, I think a lot of fans have wanted her to take the Captain Marvel mantle for a long time. Ms. Marvel was a good identity for the '70s, but it's outdated today. Binary isn't who she is any more, so that name doesn't fit. Warbird was never a great name, which is why she only had it for a short time. Rather than have her hunt for yet another identity, or go back to an older and less popular one, the best option was to have her finally accept the title that had really been hers for the taking since Mar-Vell's death. Along with a new costume that bears some homage to Mar-Vell's.
Monica wasn't going to get another solo title. It wouldn't sell. Certainly it wouldn't do better than Carol, and it would probably do a lot worse. Monica's a great character, and absolutely deserves to be used. No question there. But there's no way she could hold a solo title right now. Maybe Carol can't, either; we'll see. But she stood a much better chance than Monica.
And the debate was started by me mentioning that the Captain Marvel series passed the Bechdel Test, which prompted a long and largely pointless debate over whether the Bechdel Test is useful.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.As characters they could both hold their own books if given a decent writer. Sales wise I think they need to put the more popular character under the better known name to have a chance of one selling.
Monica needs more exposure, she's a perfect example of why the A-list, B-list, Z-list line of thinking is harmful to characters. She's barely been in anything for 20 years and people assume it's because she's a weak character.
I thought Warbird was a good name. Much better than Ms Marvel, Binary, Photon or any of the really stupid names they've given Monica recently.
Am I a good man or a bad man?I don't think Monica, right now, has enough recognition to hold a title of her own. She'd need to spend a year or two getting a push in another major title first. A good writer wouldn't make much difference - if no one cares about the character, they won't even give the book a chance. Just look at X-Factor. Peter David's a great writer, and he's been doing great things on that title for years, but it's still a low-selling series. Kieron Gillen's Journey Into Mystery run was one of the most brilliant things I've ever read, but I don't think it ever had particularly high sales, and it was about a fairly well-known character (albeit a variation on that character). A lot of these books suffer from not being deemed "important."
I'd love to see Monica in an ongoing series, but for now, she could only work in a team book, not a solo title.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
Yeah. Put her in Avengers for a couple of years, move her naturally into a leadership position again for a few years and then consider her own title.
One of the problems with modern Marvel is how half the roster of the main teams are filled up by the iconic characters, if they're not dead they have to be a focus. It hurt Storm; Cyclops must be the big leader of the X-Men which I think lead to her being married off to Panther. Although now X-Men and Avengers have enough different teams to feature more characters, but I don't think that's great either.
Am I a good man or a bad man?Maybe they should have said "our" comic are not for women. But them when you have the go to boys of Image and Marvel saying it, exactly where do you go? (Darkhorse/Darkstorm of course)
I will also admit I really am not a fan of Mark Millar. Beyond some of his Marvel Knights Spider-man (that was his right?) I cannot think of anything he did that I liked. I used to be a fan of Todd Mc Farlen, I guess I was young and dumb. I have said before a big problem with American comics is that their authors, producers, the whole industry of them does not work like one that wants to be successful. It makes pretty much no effort to use its material in other media to bring viewers back to comics, it routinely highers good writers just to clean up messes left by poor ones then dismisses them as if they have outlived their usefulness and they have an annoying habit of insulting their customers. I realize King Customer is a dangerous mentality (ask a pro wrestler or video game designer) but is that really the way to fix it?
In Mexico, CMLL actually advertises its comics, even though it is neither a comic company nor in possession of a particularly large amount of capital. Marvel advertised the planet Hulk DVD set more than it did the actual Planet Hulk arc that came years before it on their panels. Maybe comics will not die out completely in the Americas as a whole but USA seems to be getting to the point the industry will not even be able to fix itself, if it is not there already, given the biggest companies are actually subsidiaries to non comic companies.
Another is problem that the American comic industry is largely writing for itself and regardless of what anyone else thinks. Wait Cider, every good writer should write for themselves! The best stories tend to be the ones you have a burning passion to tell right? Yes, but when the consistent response to criticism is to just rely on the continually shrinking pool of bodies who has no criticism that is a problem (Women don't belong!). That and the companies are not seeking out impassioned stories people are burning to tell (see the above point about writers) they are just finding people willing to tell the stories as they are pushed on them.
Marvel is not too popular with the Latino demographic. Does it find Latino authors burning to tell stories that may appeal to this demographic? No it sends out a pitch to Latino writers, "young female character similar to spider-man" pick ups the first one who takes it, then re-launches Amazing Fantasy, the thing nobody wanted to see because its been brought back more times than Jean Grey (not that Marvel seems to realize this in its pointless effort to recreate the success of Spider-man). This produces a big mess, so Marvel gets famed Archie talent Tania Del Rio on board to wrap the whole thing up. Hey, a good writer, who is actually making our pitiful pitch look salvageable! Why didn't we look for people like her in the first place?
So do we A: have her stay on the title and see if the improved quality finally turns it around, B: see if there are any stories she wants to tell that might appeal to Latinos/whatever and get her to tell them for us instead of Archie? C: Dismiss her and continue to try appeal to new demographics through amazing fantasy pitches to whoever takes them? C
Well there was that time Marvel did get serious about cross media promotion...okay serious by their standards. So do they go with the large scale, character changing, critically acclaimed and vastly superior to civil war Annihilation? No, Civil War, the thing Mark Millar couldn't keep under control. Hindsight doesn't apply here because they knew before we did.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackThere's an interesting Cracked article about the impractical aspects of superhero costumes and most of those aspects are things you'd typically find in female superheroes. http://www.cracked.com/article_18591_the-5-most-impractical-aspects-superhero-costumes.html
A lot of those exist to um "Appeal". It's pretty much what writers now focus on. I'm just wondering if it's for the audience or the writers really do get carried away.
Basically everything about a superhero's costume exists to appeal. The costume itself is an appeal; most costumes exist simply because it's a superhero comic, and audience want to see brightly-colored costumes with superpowers in a superhero comic, and artists want to draw the same. Like many parts of what we now consider the basics of a superhero story, the costume is pure appeal.
edited 12th Aug '13 3:19:20 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.There's been a lot of instances of people designing utilitarian costumes. Most of it's fan-art, but some of it is from professional comic book artists.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.

Yep, the aggregate is more useful to thinking about how to spot/handle the problem.
For example, as I mentioned above, the Smurfette reason for Bechdel Test "failure" has declined in recent years, because it's a relatively easy fix and writers are more comfortable with putting multiple relevant women in a story.