Fate/Zero

In fairness depending on how you look at it the destruction of Saber's kingdom can be considered more embarrassing than Iskandar's.

Sure Iskandar's empire quickly fell apart to infighting after he died but it only fell apart at all because he himself unexpectedly died in the middle of a campaign due to illness. He alone brought an unfathomably massive empire to heel & commanded them as a well-oiled machine.

While Camelot's fall happened due to infighting while Artoria was still ruling. To add insult to injury, Camelot's implosion started primarily due to Artoria's wife committing adultery with Lancelot. That is rather embarrassing, she got cucked & it triggered a massive domino effect that ended with her kingdom in tatters, armies obliterated, and herself dead by her bastard produced of incest son's hands.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 25th 2019 at 3:30:53 AM

The only point that could be given to Iskander is that his empire left a bigger and more meaningful mark in history than Camelot. The Diadochi and later on the Roman Empire owed something to Alexander’s syncretic approach to unify his empire, as well as the spread of Hellenic knowledge across the Mediterranean.

Guinevere's affair was not the problem. The problem was that the king was a robot and no one liked her because she didn't know how to human. Even her most loyal knights considered her inhuman.

If Artoria herself was the problem then logically yes she was a terrible king.

What else would you call a king who is responsible for the fall of their own kingdom?

I feel like Kariya's problem is that he has next to no screentime, so him going all incel at the end doesn't feel like it has the proper buildup.

From what I read here, the light novels expand on him ranting against the others; and Nasu, Urobuchi and Takeuchi straight out call him a Chuuni. Hell, even the Einzbern bonus segment had Lancelot bashing his master with a rather long montage.

At the same time though whereas Artoria ruled, Alexander just conquered and had no interest in really ruling.

To think Gilgamesh's empire was the closest to an actual utopia.

And even then only after he took his head out of his ass.

Kariya wanted to live away from magic. Isn’t that the opposite of chuuni?

Kind of makes me wonder if summoning Enkidu and/or Siduri would knock him into acting like his caster counterpart.

Ok, reviewing the bullet from his character page, the description they were going for is being delusional or considering himself special above others, which returns a bit to the idea that Kariya had no full idea of what he was offering to Zouken by acting as the Master of Berserker.

Edited by raziel365 on Nov 25th 2019 at 6:49:43 AM

I pretty much see Kariya as the first option in The list, though I don't actually believe in "100% good" humans. Nor do I think he was that sane or came up with the best plan. But he tried despite great cost to himself. That was important to me.

I actually acknowledge that Tokoyomi was trying what he thought was best. But he's a total idiot and a terrible judge of character.

As for the feast of Kings, my problem with it from a writing perspective is that Arturia was thrown into self-doubt by it when she WAS completely in the right and her opponents had proven that they were human pollution with nothing of value to say and that the only correct response to people like that is to cleanse the world of their taint, even if it costs you your life.

Edit: I have a VERY different idea of utopia. To me, utopia requires people like Gil to be dead. I am too into equality.

Edit: Also, I don't see dissolving a kingdom as being a bad action, but I am extremely anti- monarchy.

Edited by Sereg on Nov 26th 2019 at 5:25:36 PM

Iskander's point was that you can't lead people who don't want to be led. Artoria's people rejected her. Were they right to do so? No, but human nature being what it is means it's something she should have accounted for. She failed.

The flip side is that Iskander didn't actually lead them anywhere worth going. All he was chasing was Okeanos and Okeanos was just an illusion. It was something he could never achieve and of little value in the first place.

I could talk about Gilgamesh but iirc you're not really interested in his FGO portrayal.

I don't see that as Artoria's failure. I see it as her people's failure.

As for Gil, he is less awful in GO from what I have seen, but that's a low bar. I mean, the entire reason Enkidu was created was because of how terrible a person he is.

But a lot of this comes down to Values Dissonance. If we were to compare Uruk to Omelas, some would call Omelas great as most people are happy, but my response is that the unhappy people are the only ones that matter.

Why isn't it her failure that she doesn't know how to lead people? If people don't want to follow you then that's a severe flaw as a leader. To make them do what you want anyway is what a tyrant would do and Artoria is no tyrant. Mordred didn't force anyone to rebel. They all followed her willingly because Artoria scared them with her robotic attitude and seeming lack of concern for them. Even Artoria's knights are slightly wary and distant from her even as they respect and would die for her.

Basically, she's got a great product and ideas for how to get it out there, but can't get any investors. You can't get a business off the ground like that. Incidentally I am sleepy so if that doesn't make sense it's because it's 3 AM.

Anyway, in FGO Gil is literally an ideal king. Picture all of Artoria and Iskander's strengths when it comes to being a leader, cut out all their flaws and cut out basically all of his own except having a bit of a temper. There basically aren't any unhappy people once you account for the fact that there's a world ending war going on and his side isn't doing so hot. And all his people are super nice. They would die for him and he would die for them.

I say Artoria’s other problem is that she’s too stuck in the past.

Iskandar & Gil have kinda moved on for the most part & are looking to the future. This is evident in their interactions during the banquet as they were willing to joke & make light of their past.

Artoria on the otherhand is obsessed with bringing back a dead relic from the past. She is stuck with a pointless quest that robs all the enjoyment from her life. Evident in how she couldn’t have any fun & took things too seriously at the banquet.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 27th 2019 at 1:09:27 AM

Being stuck in the past is a personal flaw, not one that has anything to do with how well she rules. And honestly, going by what she knows, I don't see why the story is so against changing the past and "accepting that bad things happen." No. If you can bring someone back to life it doesn't take meaning away from their death. Go tell a grieving mother that her child being dead is what gives his life meaning and she'll punch you in the face.

Wanting to fix her kingdom is a sign of a responsible nature that Iskander lacks entirely. Iskander doesn't care that everything he had broke and his men all died. Gilgamesh's attitude is more complicated and can only be inferred by quotes of his from Babylonia, FSN and even FHA so I don't want to get into it right now.

I don’t know it just seems rather pointless.

Camelot’s been gone for centuries, all the people are long dead, it’s just dust & legends now. As hard as it is, the world’s moved on.

I assumed Fate also had a similar “let things lie” along with it’s everything you wise for will get fucked over.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 27th 2019 at 1:22:45 AM

Fate does have that message and pretends like it makes sense, but it's only a reasonable moral when time travel is impossible. When it's not, not reviving someone with time travel is the same as not giving medical treatment to someone very sick. Either way there is a dead person you could have saved. Accepting that you can't change the past only makes sense when you can't change the past. Yes, that does turn out to be the case since the grail is corrupted and also quantum time locks, but that revelation only comes after people decide they shouldn't anyway.

Camelot also makes clear that if Artoria actually took the full measure to become a robot fully she'd massacre most of whats left of humanity, and her chosen will be placed in a paradise that's the equivalent if a museum piece solely so aliens could see humans once existed.

And if her chosen would rather die protecting their kids the knights of the Round Table will murder for not being worthy? No big loss.

And also! Also! Lancelot and Gwin is forever ruined by the fact both would rather be banging Artoria than each other.

As for Kariya, he was also womraped all the way leading up to the Grail War, and Zouken was especially crude in the worms he had ravish his body. That shit would fuck over a normal person unless you can become an easy meatsuit for chaos, death and mayhem, which Sakura has shown via BB, Kama, Mara, etc that she totally is. Even Tiamat is the "Ultimate Sakura" and she wants to stuff humanity back inside her primordial soup vagina Which Grail Mud is the cheap, poorly made knockoff of.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 27th 2019 at 1:33:10 AM

Fourth Wall Myopia’s a real bitch ain’t it?

Like Arthur realized his dream of a Utopia was not worth it, especially as Manaka's means to actually make it so everyone can go to said Paradise for her one twu wuv is summon the Beast of Revelations to kill everyone on the planet, and after which they'll be in a paradise ruled by Arthur. And since she's fucking Omnipotent it will work 100%.

And all it takes is 666 young girls being sacrificed in his place.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 27th 2019 at 1:37:00 AM

To be fair, the Camelot chapter was not in any way normal circumstances. I can't see her doing that unless it's the end of the world anyway.

But it does show that Artoria's attitude taken further really can end up totally inhuman and dangerous. What a robot values about something isn't necessarily the same thing a human values about it.

Edited by Arha on Nov 27th 2019 at 3:51:34 AM

Now that I think about it, Artoria strikes me as fitting more a general than a king.

She’s good at protecting her people but not at ruling them. Maybe she should have never been king?

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 27th 2019 at 1:54:56 AM

I do wish Nasu hadn't overused Sakura though and have even someone looks nothing like Sakura be a Sakura because the idea a child was that much more resilient to worms than a grown man to its corruption was something I loved seeing people make fun of Kariya for.

Now it's clear Sakura's just an easy vessel for evil so of course she can handle that nonstop for years.

No I'm definitely not mad Kama is female. That is most definitely not a motivation.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Nov 27th 2019 at 1:56:27 AM