Self Moderation of the On-Topic Forum

First, let me make it clear that shutting down OTC altogether would not harm the wiki's mission in any way. It is being hosted solely out of courtesy toward the interests of tropers wanting to have a conversation.

Secondly, if OTC regulars don't start to report derails and stop falling for troll bait, in short, become more self moderating and participating more in bringing in moderation help when needed, I'll have no problem at all with shutting it down.

Thirdly, I'll underscore that falling for troll tactics is the fault of the fish. This forum is expected to be more savvy, not less. Stop being made fools of.

There is a list of banned OTC topics here. Please read it. We take these rules seriously.

Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 11:08:22 AM

Why isn't this pinned? I thought I saw it was pinned when it first went up, but not anymore for some reason?

Oh look, it's pinned again.

edited 23rd Sep '11 8:39:27 AM by ThatHuman

Forgive my skepticism, but I somehow doubt that increased self-policing is going to increase the on-topicness of OTC, because the quality of conversation is dependent on the quality of contributors who in turn are doing the policing.

I really don't think trolling is the problem, either- trolls seem to be reported pretty fast. It's passive-aggressive sniping and one-shot offtopic "jokes" that extend for pages, encouraged by the current "no negativity" rule and moderation that is too lax, whether through low numbers or just plain niceness. Incidentally, this same policy of no negativity and niceness discourages people from using the holler button until the poster in question has really stepped over the line, for fear of using the holler for mere harassment, or being accused of using it in that manner.

And OTC, in my opinion, is only worse than, say, Yack Fest because all the worst elements there can be buried under shitposts and derails.

2¢

edited 23rd Sep '11 8:40:45 AM by deathjavu

I've never reported derails before and I don't intend to start. If someone feels the conversation has derailed and doesn't want that, say something.

The second part is more difficult to diagnose. This is a section where debate of current events happens, meaning diverse and often times strong opinions are involved. What's trolling and what's not is a rather grey area.

What I'd like to see is some sort of rule about creating Flame Bait threads and threadjacking. Recently, I've seen people on both the liberal and conservative sides of OTC post threads that were rather blatant Complaining About People They Don't Like, rather than an attempt to have a civil debate. Also, one of my pet peeves is where someone with strong opinions comes into a previously rather peaceful thread and ends up setting off a powder keg. Even if it is on-topic, it's rude and it certainly doesn't improve OTC's reputation any.

Wow. Two "its not my job" posts. Looks like the idea that cleaning up OTC is not "somebody else's job" is not getting through.

Many posters have time constraints, and don't exactly have time for monitoring the forum. Also, differing between trolls and people with extreme political positions can be pretty arbitrary - I think that a better solution would be to increase the number of moderators, or have one moderator specialize in moderating OTC.

Like moderators don't have time constraints? Everybody here is a volunteer. Making them an 'official' volunteer will not create any time in their calendars.

Are we to use our own judgement or will there be a guide to what the line between a strong opinion and a troll post is? And when a thread calls to be lock, will be an auto lock or will the mods use their judgement?

I don't really think that simply posting in a forum should be reason enough to monitor it. Yes, people are volunteers, but they volunteer to post, not to police the forum. Most would simply refuse to do it. People first have to agree. That's why we may have a group of volunteers to do that job, or have a specialist moderator.

edited 23rd Sep '11 10:31:41 AM by MilosStefanovic

Basic disagreement. Posting in a forum should mean you are willing to maintain it. It is your conversation, after all.

I thought the idea was to behave, not actually be mods. I think there was misunderstanding in prior discussions some of us had.

Milos, no one is asking you to stop posting for the enjoyment of posting and spend all your time patrolling for troublemakers. We're asking you to pick up the damn popcan that someone else left on the park bench you were sitting on, and chuck it in the bin instead of walking away saying "There are street sweepers for that. It's not my job."

^ The idea is for people to behave themselves, and call for the mods if someone else isn't.

@Whale: We'rre trying to hammer out some guidelines. And locking a thread (or acting on any holler) is always a judgment call. (admittedly, some of them require lots less consideration than others.) We aren't going to set up a system that allows some poster to lock down any thread they want just by calling for it.

edited 23rd Sep '11 10:51:58 AM by Madrugada

I'd agree with Fast Eddie. I myself fell for one or two troll baits during those last few months, and I'd hate to see the OTC section closed following flame wars, because, even if it isn't TV Tropes mission to have it, some topics were really exceptionnal and sometimes gave me more and better than I would find with professionnal info sources. A lot of people here are very mature, suprisingly so for internet standards, so it's pretty much our job to keep the place clean, as we're able to be in more place at once than any dedicated mod.

So it's the principle of being a more civilized community with members that look after one another's conduct? The above posts can be confusing and can give the wrong impression.

^ That's what we're looking for, yes. Behave like civilized people yourself, don't let the people who won't behave themselves set the tone.

@Mad, (I can call you that right?) That is a relief but yeah, there needs to be a set of guidelines as there is only one rule here

Dont talk about Fight Club

That a topic must stay near to the OP/title.

edited 23rd Sep '11 10:57:51 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Okay, in that case, I'm fine with it, and am perfectly willing to do what you ask. The only problem I have is that the existence of the forum hangs solely on peoples' voluntary action. And yes, we do need clear-cut guidelines beforehand, as Whale said.

We did make a sandbox article to be the tentative guidelines.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13123669300A98780500&page=9

The ramifications of what it means to be here and not other sections, and what it means to really stay true to the OTC, could be pointed out.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:01:49 AM by abstractematics

Maddy said it well. Just need to refresh the effort toward being a good netizen.

edited 23rd Sep '11 1:31:07 PM by kyfhv

I'm mixed with regards to section-specific mods, but it could help. Not everyone is interested in visiting every section.

Side note, I think it would help if the forum system could be retrofitted to help moderators (especially thread split).

I think a combination of folks who actually step up and report stuff when they feel it's crossed a line and being able to speak up is a good thing, and isn't too much to ask. I've done that myself on a few conversations I felt were getting out of control. Also, it would be nice if folks could post when not overly-emotionally charged. Results can be rather bad when that happens. Shoot, even I've done that a few times. There have been countless times in which I mash out a response only to step back and say, "nope, not hitting the send key," and it goes to digital hell.

However, I'd also like it if a few OTC heavy-hitters were approached by the staff to act as OTC-mods to help out (no, I'm not nominating myself). The staff probably has a good idea who would be good for that, to help keep things under control. Ideally, the two (self-moderation and more official mods) should complement each other and end up with a better forum environment; although only the self-moderation one (if done right) would preclude the need for mods. Human nature being what it is, though, I think we'd need both.

Just my two cents. I like this forum and I'd hate to have it go poof because we can't behave.

I don't really care if they're on-topic specific or not. But if they're global, they could check manga/anime as well.

Regarding self moderation, i'm not really optimistic. You all already know what the userbase is like. If it didn't shape up these last 2 years, I don't think it will now either.

edited 23rd Sep '11 11:32:27 AM by kyfhv

Well, let's not call it self-moderation. Let's call it "consensus", like they have it in wikimedia projects. I think we're supposed to help each other stay civil and actively try to cut things back to normal if derailing and abuse happen, which seems sensible.