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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo (Trinitroper) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#6151: Sep 20th 2025 at 4:25:02 PM

I feel 'em redundant at times. They could be easily merged into a single paragraph detailing the contrasting situations in which the trope could happen.

Trailblazer of old tropes. (She/her)
Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#6152: Sep 22nd 2025 at 4:42:17 AM

Asking here because I am not sure if that would be a major change or not, but Plot Tailored to the Party has this single-sentence paragraph:

In Comic Books, often the most limiting when dealing with any character whose power is water (especially underwater) based.

Which in my opinion feels unnecessary, since Plot Tailored to the Party concerns with the abilities of all characters in a team, not any character (that would be This Looks Like a Job for Aquaman). And (as is being discussed elsewhere) this is... incorrect — it's not really "often", since you'd expect "underwater-based" characters to have, well, entirely-underwater adventures outside of the very occasional land-based crossover (and even then — in my honest opinion their situation in land-based crossovers is actually an example of Useless Superpowers, because they're prevented from using their abilities due to contrived reasons for needing to be on land). The whole idea that "aquatic characters are useless" is a Dead Unicorn Trope. So, can I cut this paragraph?

I'd also like to get permission to cut the pothole to Crippling Overspecialization in the description of This Looks Like a Job for Aquaman while avoiding an edit war. I tried to cut it before for misuse, with the (paraphrased) edit reason that powers that are fit for three-quarters of Earth are in no way an overspecialization — but it has been added back without an edit reason, and I didn't feel like creating an ATT just for a single pothole (I have no problem with that edit otherwise). Can I remove the pothole again, or am I missing the point here and should leave it as it is? I'll not edit anything else in that sentence.

[down] Thanks ^^ I'll zap those right now.

Edited by Allisterarch on Sep 22nd 2025 at 5:51:53 AM

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
Theriocephalus Amateur Veteran from gimme a map and a moment and I can tell you Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Amateur Veteran
#6153: Sep 22nd 2025 at 12:24:58 PM

^I'm in agreement with cutting for the reasons you laid out.

(and even then — in my honest opinion their situation in land-based crossovers is actually an example of Useless Superpowers, because they're prevented from using their abilities due to contrived reasons for needing to be on land). The whole idea that "aquatic characters are useless" is a Dead Unicorn Trope.

Yeah, the "aquatic characters are useless" thing is I think mainly a result of aquatic/sea-animal themed heroes getting shoved into stories that take place from the sea a few times and then things getting distorted on the internet telephone rather than, like, a thing in itself.

Anyway, on another topic. I wanted to make an expansion to the Ribcage Ridge description — my changes in bold.

Like an oddly-colored sky with multiple suns or moons, this is one of those surefire ways of letting the audience know that the story has taken them to a world vastly different from our own. Just stick a ginormous monster skeleton somewhere in the scenery, and presto, instant otherworld! Interestingly, the heroes almost never encounter a living monster of that type, or one in an earlier state of decayalbeit, in the latter case, a dead body would presumably last long as bare or fossilized bones than the time its flesh takes to decay. Sometimes, dinosaur bones may be substituted to indicate another time period instead of another world entirely. Again, if dinosaurs are still alive in this variant of the trope, the skeleton usually isn't one of a living species established to be present in the setting.

This often overlaps with Alien Landmass, as both involve the use of large, unearthly landscape features to symbolize that a story is moving through realms unlike our own. Overlap is also possible with That's No Moon, where something taken for a natural feature of the landscape turns out to be something that normally wouldn't get that big — a giant monster's plant- and soil-covered corpse can easily fill this role. In particularly exaggerated settings, multiple notable landforms may have originated as the remains of huge dead monsters slain during The Time of Myths, sometimes still recognizable as corpses or skeletons and sometimes less so.

See also Saharan Shipwreck, Desert Skull, Ribcage Stomach and Elephant Graveyard. For a much larger version of this concept, see Giant Corpse World. When the huge creature in the background is still alive, see Monstrous Scenery; overlap is possible if the being is undead. Compare Foreboding Carcass, which is when there's a literal dead body of an animal somewhere in a scene that is used for Foreshadowing purposes.

TMH-Sir-Iron-Vomit The clown of STEEL from Ichnusa Since: Mar, 2024
The clown of STEEL
#6154: Sep 23rd 2025 at 12:19:46 AM

[tup]To the second addition.


I was thinking if this is worth adding to Yellow Earth, Green Earth, or is it too "speculative"?
Starting from the 20th century, there's also a new possible inspiration behind this trope: earth-moving vehicles. In their case, bright colors are chosen less for cultural significance, and rather for more pragmatic reasons — visibility, since when you're near a giant machine with megatons of horsepower, the best way to avoid accidents is to make it as visible as possible.

Yellow in particular is very common for construction vehicle, since humans are very sensitive to it even in low-light conditions, on top of yellow paint being relatively cheap. There are other colors used as well (such as red, orange, lime green, and even grey), but are nowhere as popular as yellow. The common sight of brightly-colored machinery in construction sites can be another inspiration for creators to use those colors for characters with earth-moving powers.

Edited by TMH-Sir-Iron-Vomit on Sep 23rd 2025 at 9:44:02 PM

Oo oo ah ah
empressteta Since: Nov, 2019
#6155: Sep 23rd 2025 at 8:56:54 AM

[up]

There are other colors used as well (such as red, orange, lime green, and even grey), but are nowhere as popular as yellow.
I don't have any statistics, but it seems to me that orange is more common in construction. If I'm not mistaken, our eyes perceive orange best in daylight, and green in nightlight.

Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6156: Sep 23rd 2025 at 9:55:49 PM

I think it is a bit far-fetched. Then again, the yellow in those paints comes from iron oxides, which are mined specifically for the purpose. So, maybe?

Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#6157: Sep 24th 2025 at 10:57:29 AM

I've been wanting to retool the description of Awesome Underwater World for a while to be less focused on the "mystery" and "humans can't survive there!" aspects, and more on how diverse the undersea environment is and how it's like to move in three dimensions (also to avoid undersea-but-not-underwater misuse). Less "telling" and more "showing", if you will. I've also removed the (false) claim that the oceans remain mysterious and unexplored (they do not — as shown in the description of Oceanic Horror, it's not true at all) and removed the puns because I was not a fan of them at all (but I could add them back — reluctantly — if necessary).

Is this expansion good? Hopefully I didn't go overboard with the descriptions, lol. EDIT: fixed slightly incorrect statistic.

    Awesome Underwater World (original) 

Most people would not consider much what was going on underwater, despite it making up 70% of the world. Given how humanity cannot survive underwater without special equipment that was only developed recently, it does make a fair bit of sense.

Yet, when people were finally able to go underwater, they discovered how breath-taking it all isnote .

Thanks to the endless potential of fiction along with the growing advancements in technology and science for underwater exploration, many creators have been awed at the abundance of life and mystery held beneath the waves. Beyond the strange and exotic-looking creatures is the fact that it remains unexplored, maintaining this sense of mystery under the waves.

Then there are the centuries of lore and mythology associated with the ocean since humanity first set out to sea. Besides the classic romance of sailors and explorers with the sea, humanity has always maintained fascination with what magical or monstrous beings lived underwater, a new world where humanity could not tread. This has been reflected in various folktales and stories in all sorts of human mythologies. Combine this with the potential discovery for ruins of ancient or modern human creations, and you have an underwater world of awe. Awe-derwater, if you will.

Probably contains an Underwater City (usually Atlantis) inhabited by mermaids, Water-Breathing Humans and/or Fish People. For wildlife, you will find Sea Monsters, fish and dolphins, both playful and heroic (however, beware the devious sort). The occasional Shipshape Shipwreck may provide housing for any of the above.

For a version that couples can see without special diving equipment or powers, see Aquarium Date. For related underwater tropes, see Under the Sea, Water Is Air, and Flying Seafood Special. Sub-Trope of Scenery Porn. Compare Ocean of Adventure. Contrast Eldritch Ocean Abyss.

    Awesome Underwater World (rewrite) 

Most people would not think much about what's going on underwater, despite the oceans making up three quarters of the Earth. Given how humanity cannot survive underwater without special equipment that was only developed recently, it does make a fair bit of sense.

Yet once we were finally able to go underwater, we saw a world full of life held beneath the waves. Vibrant and colorful coral reefs through the tropics, kelp forests with fruit-like airbladders and columnar fronds that grow tall in temperate zones, seagrass meadows with lily-like flowers that bloom every spring, all swarmed by colorful fish singing like birds and crustaceans cackling like cricketsnote . Even in the otherwise empty deserts (abyssal plains) that make two thirds of the oceans and more than 50% of the Earth, there are isolated communities of peculiar-looking extremophiles in cold seeps, hydrothermal vents, brine pools, whale falls, cold-water coral and sponge reefs, rock reefs and shipwrecks found in all depths — we cannot help but feel awe at how life can thrive even in otherwise inhospitable environments.

Then there are the centuries of lore and mythology associated with the ocean since humanity first set out to sea. Besides the classic romance of sailors and explorers with the sea, humanity has always maintained fascination with what magical or monstrous beings could have lived underwater, a new world where — for most of history — humanity could not tread. This has been reflected in various folktales and stories in all sorts of human mythologies. Combine this with the potential discovery for Underwater Ruins of ancient or modern human creations, and you have an ocean full of awe.

Now in the modern era, when we know much more about the seas than we've ever did (thanks to the growing advancements in technology and science for underwater exploration), we may wonder how it'd be like to be able to breathe underwater and move in three dimensions in our day-to-day — to fly through liquid with the same ease as walking or running. SCUBA diving may provide an approximation, but a water-breathing character would have an even richer sensory experience, being able to taste and sense every smell suspended in the water and hear every sound unmuffled. From here we get gorgeous Underwater Cities (usually Atlantis) with buildings made of monumental stonemasonry and hanging gardens of kelp and/or open-water coral vivaria, inhabited by Water-Breathing Humans, mythological creatures such as mermaids or Sea Monsters, or extra- or Ultraterrestrials such as Fish People or aquatic Starfish Aliens.

For wildlife, you will find aquatic animals of any kind, no matter how deep — often fish and dolphinsnote , both playful and heroic (however, beware the devious sort). The occasional Shipshape Shipwreck may provide housing for any of the above.

For a version that couples can see next-door without any special diving equipment or powers, see Aquarium Date. For related underwater tropes, see Under the Sea, Water Is Air, and Flying Seafood Special. Sub-Trope of Scenery Porn. Compare Ocean of Adventure. Contrast Eldritch Ocean Abyss.

Edited by Allisterarch on Sep 25th 2025 at 12:33:19 PM

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#6159: Sep 25th 2025 at 4:20:06 AM

[up] Yeah, I was worried I went too overboard with it xD and I know not many works even acknowledge the fact kelp have airbladders or seagrasses are flowering plants, even though these are all entirely true.

So, should I tone it down in some way? Hmm, I could move the extraneous details to the one example (currently a ZCE) in the Real Life section, then. (Not an oceanographer fyi I just really love underwater settings.)

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
taotruths Live Jet Reaction (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I sleep in a big bed with my wife.
Live Jet Reaction
#6160: Sep 25th 2025 at 7:20:28 AM

I originally wrote an entry for VideoGame.Sonic Racing Cross Worlds for This Is a Competition, which followed the description where Shadow treats the competition as...well, a contest, with intentions to win and that he's not here to play nice or make niceties. Then some more examples were added like so:

  • This Is a Competition:
    • In his Rival interactions, Shadow dismisses anyone who isn't taking the race seriously, essentially asking his opponents to race seriously since he's giving it all, and any niceties is a waste of time on the track.
    • Almost everyone as Omega's rival has to remind him of this. Specifically, this is just a friendly kart race, not a death match.
    • The Babylon Rogues are dead serious about this being a competition, and take issue with the likes of younger participants being on the track (such as Cream, Sage, Tails and Charmy) or those who may violate the sanctity of the race (Zazz) and often dismiss any attempts at friendliness.

The original description of This Is a Competition seems a bit laser-focused on it being from reality TV shows or and some of the on-page examples are split between treating things as a contest for serious or thinking something isn't as serious as it really is.

Good case for expanding on the description a bit?

Edited by taotruths on Sep 25th 2025 at 7:22:05 AM

Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6161: Sep 25th 2025 at 9:39:25 AM

[up] Yeah, maybe a little toning down. Not too much, though ;)

As for This Is a Competition, at first I was going to recommend changing the trope to I'm Not Here to Make Friends... and then it turned out it's also focused on reality shows. This seems odd - fiction has always been full of competitions and Competition Freaks. But changing the description is a bit different from polishing it, I'm afraid.

Edited by Veanne on Sep 25th 2025 at 9:39:38 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6162: Sep 25th 2025 at 9:42:29 AM

If the definition is reality-show centric, this thread can't do anything about that and it needs TRS.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#6163: Sep 25th 2025 at 10:43:09 AM

[up][up] Thanks ^^ Anyway, here's an attempt at a toned down version:

    Awesome Underwater World (rewrite — the sequel) 

Most people would not think much about what's going on underwater, despite the oceans making up three quarters of the Earth. For many, the oceans are just water and fish. Given how humanity cannot survive underwater without special equipment that was only developed recently, it does make a fair bit of sense.

Yet once we were finally able to go underwater, we've discovered the oceans have as much variety of biomes as dry land as we saw a world full of life held beneath the waves — kelp forests, seagrass meadows and colorful coral reefs, all full of fish and invertebrates swimming in the water. Even in the otherwise desert deep sea, there are oases of life in places such as seamounts, shipwrecks, whale falls and hydrothermal vents — we cannot help but feel awe at how life can thrive even in otherwise inhospitable environments.

Then there are the centuries of lore and mythology associated with the ocean since humanity first set out to sea. Besides the classic romance of sailors and explorers with the sea, humanity has always maintained fascination with what magical or monstrous beings could have lived underwater, a new world where — for most of history — humanity could not tread. This has been reflected in various folktales and stories in all sorts of human mythologies. Combine this with the potential discovery for Underwater Ruins of ancient or modern human creations, and you have an ocean of awe.

Now in the modern era, when we know much more about the seas than we've ever did (thanks to the growing advancements in technology and science for underwater exploration), we may wonder how it'd be like to be able to breathe underwater and move in three dimensions in our day-to-day — to fly through liquid with the same ease as walking or running. SCUBA diving may provide an approximation, but a water-breathing character would have an even richer sensory experience, being able to taste and sense every smell suspended in the water and hear every sound unmuffled. From here we get gorgeous Underwater Cities (usually Atlantis) with buildings of monumental stonemasonry and hanging gardens, inhabited by Water-Breathing Humans, mythological creatures such as mermaids or Sea Monsters, or extra- or Ultraterrestrials such as Fish People or aquatic Starfish Aliens.

For wildlife, you will find aquatic animals of any kind, no matter how deep — often fish and dolphinsnote , both playful and heroic (however, beware the devious sort). The occasional Shipshape Shipwreck may provide housing for any of the above.

For a version that couples can see next-door without any special diving equipment or powers, see Aquarium Date. For related underwater tropes, see Under the Sea, Water Is Air, and Flying Seafood Special. Sub-Trope of Scenery Porn. Compare Ocean of Adventure. Contrast Eldritch Ocean Abyss.


[down][down] Thank you! Fixed and swapped.

Edited by Allisterarch on Sep 26th 2025 at 10:52:30 AM

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
taotruths Live Jet Reaction (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I sleep in a big bed with my wife.
Live Jet Reaction
#6164: Sep 25th 2025 at 11:19:29 AM

[up][up]Alright, I'll add it to the list of things to take to TRS then.

Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6165: Sep 25th 2025 at 9:56:47 PM

2 * [up] Apart from "one single biome - water and fish" which isn't really a biome (I'd simply write: "oceans are just water and fish"), looks good to me.

Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#6166: Sep 27th 2025 at 2:14:09 PM

The description for Super Swimming Skills seems... very disorganized. I've done some very minor grammar fixes just now, but I was pondering about adding a new paragraph. (The "new paragraph" turned out to be a couple, lol.)

Even back when the trope was called Olympic Swimmer, it seemed to combine three different definitions at once — "supernaturally fast swimming", "good swimmer due to training" and "inexplicably swimming really well". There was some discussion about it here. Either way, now I thought about it a bit and these three concepts actually overlap a lot, with the first overlapping with Elemental Speed and the second with Charles Atlas Superpower (in case it leads to unrealistic swimming stamina/speed; if not, then it's probably People Sit on Chairs).

*Ahem* Anyway. My attempt at a refined description — not many changes beyond concision and removal of Word Cruft, as well as new potholes and the added paragraphs (note that I've removed the "Compare Super Not-Drowning Skills" part for now as it's in the middle of the process of being renamed to No Such Thing As Drowning per TRS):

    Super Swimming Skills (original) 

In the real world, swimming is a skill that must be learned over a period of time — and that's just for swimming on the surface. Swimming underwater is another skill all on its own that must be learned, and even then, no human can stay under for more than a couple of minutes or so at most without the aid of some special equipment, or some continuous training to boost lung capacity.

In fiction, however, this appears not to be the case. Video games are the biggest offenders here. Any character that doesn't have Super Drowning Skills has a completely natural ability to swim like a fish, even if they've lived out in someplace like a desert their entire life.

Usually, though, they must acquire some special outfit or equipment in order to be able to swim underwater — but once they do acquire it, they are immediately able to use it like a total pro, and don't require any practice using it or moving around in the water with it whatsoever.

Then there's also the fact that in many video games, characters can swim and tread water for indefinite amounts of time without getting tired. In Real Life, swimming exerts a great amount of physical strength and energy, and gets very, very exhausting after some time, even for Olympic swimmers. Of course, they're also capable of walking for hundreds of miles on dry land without a break either...

This may be an Acceptable Break from Reality, however. If characters in video games had even remotely realistic swimming skills, it would take a lot of fun out of exploring underwater ruins and such, and it would be extremely aggravating for players.

Compare Super Not-Drowning Skills for holding your breath indefinitely (or at least for a long time), which can be considered a Sister Trope to this one; take note that if a character has one, they'll probably have the other as well. Contrast Super Drowning Skills and Hazardous Water. See also Water Is Air.

Only slightly adjacent to Pooled Funds, which is a far more fantastic version of this trope.

    Super Swimming Skills (rewrite) 

Swimming is a skill that must be learned over a period of time — and that's just for swimming on the surface. Swimming underwater is another skill all on its own; and even then, no human can stay under for more than a couple of minutes or so at most without the aid of some special equipment, or some continuous training to boost lung capacity.

In fiction, however, this doesn't appear to be the case — particularly video games. Any character who doesn't have Super Drowning Skills will have a completely natural ability to swim like a fish, even if they've lived in a place like a desert their entire life. Sometimes, they must acquire some special outfit or equipment in order to be able to swim underwater — but once they acquire it, they're immediately able to use it like a total pro without any practice whatsoever.

Then there's the fact that in many video games, characters can swim and tread water for indefinite amounts of time without getting tired. In Real Life, swimming exerts a great amount of physical strength and energy, and gets very, very exhausting after a while. (Although video game characters can also walk for hundreds of miles on dry land without breaking a sweat...) This may be an Acceptable Break from Reality — if characters in video games had more realistic swimming skills, it would take a lot of fun out of exploring underwater ruins and become fairly aggravating for players.

Common for Water-Breathing Humans and humans turned merfolk, who are often shown immediately knowing how to swim the moment they take their first breath underwater even if they have never dipped their toes into water before. They're often commonly portrayed as able to swim across continents in superhuman speeds, never needing to stop to catch a breath even after they've just crossed half the surface of Earth. If there's a Seahorse Steed, it may be shown always swimming and never needing to rest or even eat — in which case it overlaps with Automaton Horses.

May be handwaved via the character having a form of Elemental Speed through hydrokinesis. Other times, there's nothing supernatural involved — they're just somehow able to swim superhumanly fast through training.

Only slightly adjacent to Pooled Funds, which is a far more fantastic version of this trope. Contrast Super Drowning Skills and Hazardous Water. See also Water Is Air.


If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
FSharp Resisting a rest Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: I wanna know what love is
#6167: Sep 28th 2025 at 12:18:34 AM

[up] By "swim across continents" I assume you mean "swim across oceans."

I don't just Wiki Talk the talk. I Wiki Walk the walk.
Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6168: Sep 28th 2025 at 3:18:18 AM

[up] Unless, of course, the swimmer swims through rivers :)

Other than that, I think it's okay. Speaking of disorganised descriptions, I only just noticed Gravity Is Only a Theory has a bit of an oops - apart from the notes explaining more than the text itself (not so oopsy), the sentence "In some works, however, the theory of gravity comes under fire as well, most often for purposes of analogy and satire." comes out of nowhere. The next sentence is about theory of evolution and it would have made much more sense if it went not:

In some works, however, the theory of gravity comes under fire as well, most often for purposes of analogy and satire. For various reasons, the theory of evolution is the only scientific theory that gets challenged on a regular basis in Real Life. This has caused many science communicators to assert that evolution has so much evidence supporting it that it may instead be considered 'scientific fact'.

but rather:

For various reasons, the theory of evolution is the only scientific theory that gets challenged on a regular basis in Real Life. This has caused many science communicators to assert that evolution has so much evidence supporting it that it may instead be considered 'scientific fact'. In some works, however, the theory of gravity comes under fire as well, most often for purposes of analogy and satire.

With notes as needed (also, theory of evolution is the most publicly attacked scientific theory, far as I know, but not only). Or maybe a little more organising is in order?

Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#6169: Sep 28th 2025 at 7:11:59 AM

[up][up] & [up]: Oh, I intended it to mean "swimming from continent to continent/coast to coast", but, yeah, just "swim across oceans" might be better. Fixing that detail and swapping the description right now.

[up]: Your reorganization is an improvement for sure. Maybe the first sentence could be further reworded to something like "For various reasons, the theory of evolution is the scientific theory that gets challenged the most in Real Life on a regular basis." (for the reason you pointed out.)

I'd personally point out there's plenty of solid evidence for evolution (they're pretty huge fossils) but no scientific theory is supposed to be a dogma set in stone, and the details are still changing with each new fossil discovered and studied in-depth — although I don't know how I'd word that.

Edited by Allisterarch on Sep 28th 2025 at 11:25:40 AM

If Aquaman is "Nobody's favorite superhero", then I am Odysseus. (They/Them) (Troper Wall)
Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6170: Sep 28th 2025 at 9:30:05 AM

Good point. The notes have some of this information, but it needs a little reorganising.

ETA: How does this look? I think the line specifically about the trope is not enough.


Dissing gravity as a way of dissing either reality itself or some theory/guess/world-view.

A large part of this trope's use in both fiction and Real Life stems from the fact that 'theory' means something very different in a scientific (and philosophical) context to its everyday use, which could be summed up as 'unconfirmed idea', and 'it's just a theory' is a common way to indicate lack of confidence/certainty. What "theory" actually means is a tricky, tricky subject, but, simply put, for scientists and philosophers a theory is a model that interprets and explains facts and allows for prediction — using the gravity example, a fact is that when I dropped my pen just now, it fell to the floor, while theory of gravity is a conceptual framework that lets me say, with reasonable conviction, that my pen will fall to the floor when I drop it tomorrow, and it would have fallen to the ground if there were no floor. It might do so by claiming gravity waves, gravitons, curvature of space or tap-dancing garden gnomes, and we have no real way of determining which one is true — only of weeding out theories that are false (because a false or insufficient theory will fail at prediction eventually). Theories in science are not, however, set in stone — they are under constant reevaluation and may be superceeded by new theories that explain things better (this takes time and effort, and scientists do get attached to the theories of their youth, but that's a long story).

Still, the people who don't know that and treat the word 'theory' the way laymen treat it will use the fact that scientific theories are called "theories" against said theories.

For various reasons, in Real Life this happens most often to the (neo)-darwinist theory of evolution, which in turn drives many science communicators to assert that evolution has so much evidence supporting it that it may instead be considered 'scientific fact'note .

In some works, however, the theory of gravity comes under fire as well, most often for purposes of analogy and satire.

See also: I Reject Your Reality, Science Is Wrong, What We Now Know to Be True, and Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions — and see Gravity Is a Harsh Mistress for when gravity itself is simply acting goofy.

Edited by Veanne on Sep 28th 2025 at 9:46:22 AM

Allisterarch Water-Breathing Human from Ridiculous Procrastination zone (Striking Back) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
#6171: Sep 28th 2025 at 5:59:10 PM

[up] Hmm... the second paragraph feels like a bit of a Wall of Text. Would it be possible to trim it a bit for concision? I am not sure if First Person is allowed in trope descriptions either, so that one part may need rewording — for example: "If you drop your pen just now, it will fall to the floor; the theory of gravity is a conceptual framework that asserts with reasonable conviction that it will fall to the floor when you drop it tomorrow, and it would still have fallen if there were no floor."

Other than that, it looks good to me.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6172: Sep 28th 2025 at 6:05:15 PM

First person is fine in trope descriptions, but they're supposed to be used to make it a Self-Demonstrating Article, which that isn't

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 28th 2025 at 9:05:31 AM

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Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6173: Sep 28th 2025 at 9:57:56 PM

Yeah, I sort of cut-and-paste one of the notes (and got rid of the other). Good point.

Here's the second-person version (with typos fixed and some minor polishes). Not sure how to trim it, though, keeping the information untouched (I admit to being somewhat attached to the step-dancing garden gnomes):


Dissing gravity as a way of dissing either reality itself or some theory/guess/world-view.

A large part of this trope's use in both fiction and Real Life stems from the fact that 'theory' means something very different in a scientific (and philosophical) context to its everyday use, which could be summed up as 'unconfirmed idea', and 'it's just a theory' is a common way to indicate lack of confidence/certainty. What "theory" actually means is a tricky, tricky subject, but basically for scientists and philosophers a theory is a model that interprets and explains facts and allows for prediction.

Using the gravity example, let's say that you drop a pen. It falls to the floor — this is a fact you can observe. The theory of gravity is a conceptual framework that lets you say, with reasonable conviction, that the pen will fall to the floor when you drop it tomorrow, and it would have fallen to the ground if there were no floor. It might do so by claiming gravity waves, gravitons, curvature of space or tap-dancing garden gnomes, and we have no real way of determining which one is true — only of weeding out theories that are false (because a false or insufficient theory will fail at prediction eventually). Theories in science are not, however, set in stone — they are under constant reevaluation and may be superseded by new theories that explain things better (this takes time and effort, and scientists do get attached to the theories of their youth, but that's a long story).

Still, the people who don't know that and treat the word 'theory' the way laymen treat it will use the fact that scientific theories are called "theories" against said theories.

For various reasons, in Real Life this happens most often to the (neo)-darwinist theory of evolution, which in turn drives many science communicators to assert that evolution has so much evidence supporting it that it may instead be considered 'scientific fact'note .

In some works, however, the theory of gravity comes under fire as well, most often for purposes of analogy and satire, usually analogy and satire on the aforementioned critique of evolution.

See also: I Reject Your Reality, Science Is Wrong, What We Now Know to Be True, and Outgrown Such Silly Superstitions — and see Gravity Is a Harsh Mistress for when gravity itself is simply acting goofy.

Edited by Veanne on Sep 28th 2025 at 9:59:34 AM

Theriocephalus Amateur Veteran from gimme a map and a moment and I can tell you Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
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#6174: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:14:50 AM

I was thinking of adding this chunk to Humans Are Smelly:

In science fiction settings, this may also be rooted in the fact that real-life mammals, humans included, do notably produce far more in the way of skin secretions that other animals do — almost all mammals produce sebum, a mixture of fats and oils used to keep skin pliable (ever felt a slightly clammy sensation when rubbing your fingertips? That's sebum), many species sweat or produce strong-smelling scent markers, and the combination of these things tends to produce stronger smells and more visible products than other animal groups would have (things like strong body odor or eye crusts are hardly unique to mammals, but we're certainly more prone to them). This is in notable contrast to creatures like reptiles or arthropods, which despite being culturally perceived as slimy or dirty tend to produce much less in the way of skin discharge — and if handled by a human, are often seen fastidiously cleaning themselves of the residue left on them afterwards. Thus, non-mammalian or alien species are sometimes characterized as finding humans in particular or sapient mammals in general as being offensively glandular and odoriferous beings.

There are a few examples that use this concept —the Runaway to the Stars and Humans-B-Gone entries mention it— and I'm fairly confident on the science, but it's a big addition compared to the size of the current description.

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#6175: Sep 29th 2025 at 1:48:44 PM

I gave it a thumbs up, it's neat.

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