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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6126: Sep 6th 2025 at 12:59:22 AM

Since nobody seems to have anything more to say re: Evil Reactionary, I'm changing it to petersohn's suggestion.

As for Police State - the description is definitely of the oppressive police force, not a police state, you're right. It even lists tropes about police forces as "variants" - but The Dictatorship and Dystopia as supertropes, which is kind of confusing. Maybe it should be split? Into Police State and State Police, or something like that?

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#6127: Sep 6th 2025 at 1:28:24 AM

[up] I did a wick check which you can find in the TRS post I linked — roughly two thirds of the usage is "police state", a fifth were ZCE or ambiguously worded, and the rest were misuse under both definitions (this is after I cleaned the page of ZCEs some two years ago). Right now there's no evidence for the "oppressive police force" trope getting any usage (though of course I checked 50 wicks out of 944, roughly 5% of the trope's wicks); you can, of course, check more wicks and see whether a larger number checked will have a different pattern emerge.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6128: Sep 6th 2025 at 7:18:43 AM

Um, okay. The issue seems to be disconnection between the name and the description of this trope. How about changing the description to match the name and waiting? If State Police turns out to be a useful trope, and it's really nonexistant, it can always be added later.

Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#6129: Sep 15th 2025 at 7:35:50 PM

The description for Art Game was recently changed up without any discussion from this thread. What should we do about it?

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
MyFinalEdits Delete message from Parts Unknown (Spin-off Series) Relationship Status: Cast away
Delete message
#6130: Sep 15th 2025 at 8:12:09 PM

Have you sent the troper who changed the description an Unilateral notifier yet?

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#6132: Sep 15th 2025 at 11:20:50 PM

[up] They mostly just expanded the description to what an Art Game is, which is fine but I think it would be better if we got some input from other tropers.

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
Theriocephalus Amateur Veteran from gimme a map and a moment and I can tell you Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Amateur Veteran
#6133: Sep 16th 2025 at 5:38:46 AM

For reference, the old description was this:

This is the sort of Video Game that uses games as an art form. While all games are in some way trying to create a gameplay experience, these put more emphasis than most on the more aesthetic aspects of the medium. Essentially, this is a type of game where as much or even more emphasis is put on the game being a story or an art piece as on it being interactive entertainment. While in many cases the actual gameplay experience is minimal, others are just as developed gameplay-wise as more typical games (some can even be quite difficult), it's just that the story or visuals or themes are played up more and are commonly considered to be at least as important as the gameplay to the overall experience.

And the new one is this:

This is a Video Game with an artistic message, when the people with creative control are using the medium of game as a means of expression.

While all games set out to create an experience in some way, these are probably going to be a little avant-garde about it. Though it might not always be the case, it's fair to expect them to be story-rich, and often very stylized. And don't be surprised if they include deep themes or commentary about ethical dilemmas, or society, or some other heavy topic. While in many cases the actual gameplay experience is minimal, others are just as developed gameplay-wise as more typical games (some can even be quite difficult), it's just that the story or visuals or themes are played up more and are commonly considered to be at least as important as the gameplay to the overall experience.

Note that the term "art game" isn't really a "genre" as such, as the games listed below encompass everything from puzzle games to third-person shooters. It's more of a blanket term for games that are commonly seen to have artistic qualities, or whose developers are perceived to have taken a highly artistic approach to game design.

The changes are the introduction of a few sentences at the start ("these are probably going to be a little avant-garde about it. Though it might not always be the case, it's fair to expect them to be story-rich, and often very stylized. And don't be surprised if they include deep themes or commentary about ethical dilemmas, or society, or some other heavy topic") and of the final paragraph.

I don't love the use of transitions to start sentences with, but otherwise I'm not really seeing any issues.

Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo (Trinitroper) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#6134: Sep 16th 2025 at 6:25:14 AM

I think the additions could use some better wording—it's a little bit awkward—but other than that, they're fine. They aren't changing the trope's definition or scope, simply stating something that is common in such games. So, keep 'em, but if they can be reworded for greater clarity and conciseness, it'd be great.

Trailblazer of old tropes. (She/her)
wingedsnake Since: Jan, 2014
#6135: Sep 16th 2025 at 10:50:54 AM

Hello all. I was recently made aware that edits I made to Art Game ended up on the radar, here. I have attempted to integrate the feedback provided and have revised my prior changes so it now reads:

This is a Video Game with an artistic message, when the people with creative control are using the medium of game as a means of expression.

While all games set out to create an experience in some way, these are probably going to be avant-garde about it. They are commonly story-rich and very stylized, and will often wrestle with deep themes or commentary about ethical dilemmas, or society, or other similarly heavy subject matter.

Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo (Trinitroper) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#6136: Sep 16th 2025 at 3:43:22 PM

[up]Looks fine to me.

Trailblazer of old tropes. (She/her)
Rotide She-Who-Hunts-Unseen (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
She-Who-Hunts-Unseen
#6137: Sep 18th 2025 at 4:08:46 AM

The current description of The Horde (Along with the examples on the main page, but that's another matter) leaves me confused about its exact definition. What's given doesn't seem to fit within its stated nature as a kind of government, since it doesn't really explain how it might function as one past a single sentence (As in, what it's relationship to The Federation or The Empire would be, or what have you; it seems to just be "Pillaging The Good Kingdom").

It's also not written in an effective, genre-neutral way (Like throwing in a mention of "swooping Birds Of Prey descending from the dark of space" to the opening paragraph, for instance), and leans heavily on an Always Chaotic Evil image (Which, as far as I can tell, doesn't seem to be mandatory for this trope?). There's no mention of how neutral or benign Hordes might be involved in a story (Like, heroic barbarian underdogs against The Empire).

Lastly, I'm unsure as to how the hordes made up of non-sentient beings mentioned in the last paragraph fit into this trope, or why Proud Warrior Race is brought up as something wholly distinct from this trope (Given that plenty of examples show the considerable overlap between the two).

"TV Tropes looks like if Tumblr got a little crazy at a party last night and brought someone home"
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6138: Sep 18th 2025 at 7:21:52 AM

If the definition is outright unclear, there's not a lot this thread can do; we only rewrite the descriptions to clarify definitions that are otherwise understood and agreed upon

Any redefining effort needs TRS

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 18th 2025 at 9:07:22 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo (Trinitroper) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#6139: Sep 18th 2025 at 6:06:08 PM

Yup, it seems an issue best served by being brought to the TRS. If it helps any, the laconic defines The Horde as "A vast tide of barbarian warriors sweeping across the land." Of course, laconics are often faulty and out of touch with their trope's actual definition, but they might sometimes be useful.

Trailblazer of old tropes. (She/her)
Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6140: Sep 18th 2025 at 9:57:53 PM

Um, but isn't it the point of the horde that it's Chaotic Evil and invading? Good barbarians would be a different trope.

Rotide She-Who-Hunts-Unseen (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
She-Who-Hunts-Unseen
#6141: Sep 19th 2025 at 12:26:29 AM

You'd think that, but Barbarian Tribes also seem to often be evil and invading, and other tropers' comments on the matter and their understanding of the tropes' definitions + the description of The Horde mentioning it + examples of The Horde actually pretty frequently not about evil Hordes, nor about them actively invading someone else, all suggest that it's not defined that way either.

I definitely need to take both of them to TRS (And probably also Hordes from the East, after looking it over). Thanks for the feedback. I've got a lot more Wicks to check before this is done...

"TV Tropes looks like if Tumblr got a little crazy at a party last night and brought someone home"
Riolugirl Just "Rio" is fine! from Planet Sparkles (spaaaarklleeees...) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: It's a god-awful small affair
Just "Rio" is fine!
#6142: Sep 19th 2025 at 12:28:01 AM

If the problem is with the laconic, that should be brought to the relevant improvement thread.

"Hark! For your greatest fears manifest in yours truly!" (She/Her) (Current focus: Image Pickin')
Rotide She-Who-Hunts-Unseen (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
She-Who-Hunts-Unseen
#6143: Sep 19th 2025 at 12:41:20 AM

No, the problem I saw was with the main description (and as a result of its definition itself being unclear, after I had that pointed out to me).

Edited by Rotide on Sep 19th 2025 at 12:41:32 PM

"TV Tropes looks like if Tumblr got a little crazy at a party last night and brought someone home"
GearFriedTheKnight BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century. from The nearest road that can be raced (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century.
#6144: Sep 19th 2025 at 10:42:58 AM

Something I noticed in The Maiden Name Debate whilst looking for family tropes...

A soon-to-be-married woman has difficulties with the idea of changing her last name. Or perhaps, her soon-to-be husband has difficulties, or maybe his mother has problems (often because she doesn't like any daughter-in-law taking the same name she changed her own to). This trope usually starts with the woman in question writing out her maiden name along with her married name to try it out, or try saying it in front of a mirror for practice. Usually, the lady is an established career woman (or wants to be). Less often, there is the issue of the aesthetics of the name: should Rhea Mills have to be saddled with ridicule for the rest of her life for having married Robert Peer? (As a general rule, since you never know who she might marry, it would be wise to avoid naming your daughter "Anita".) Truth in Television, obviously, and a potentially contentious issue.
Whilst, yes, the issue is in Truth in Television, it is so, so much more varied across the world: in some countries, the issue flat-out doesn't exist as those countries have adapted both newlyweds to keep their respective surnames. In other countries, the wife keeps the surname but is adressed by her husband's surname, which has lead to discourse amongst part of society. In the rare matrilineal/matriarachal society, the husband takes the wife's surname. And so on.

As it stands, The Maiden Name Debate is very much an American issue, and even then things are changing over there. The page is ancient, created in 2008, so it's about time for a more nuanced description that explains the multiple facets of this trope.

''There's no magic in tuning; yet, it's something that tends to escape from any logic."
So_so_tired Since: Mar, 2025 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#6145: Sep 19th 2025 at 11:46:50 AM

From Monty Haul:

In some other cases though, the Monty Haul game master may be a case of Suspicious Game Master Generosity since sometimes they may take it to bring upon an already dangerous foe and give him a slew of new tricks or has their stats tweaked for whatever to get ready for a tougher battle.

The phrasing here is unclear. For example, does "their stats" refer to the party, or the enemy that was just referred to as "him"? If it's because of multiple people randomly adding content, it was so long ago the history isn't visible.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#6146: Sep 19th 2025 at 12:11:41 PM

[up] I can barely even understand what the paragraph is trying to say. What I think it's saying is that the game master may be making loot plentiful as a way of helping the party prepare for a daunting challenge later on. Am I in the ballpark?

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
So_so_tired Since: Mar, 2025 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#6147: Sep 19th 2025 at 3:35:42 PM

[up] Yeah, same here.

How's this sound?

In some cases, the Monty Haul game master may be offering Suspicious Game Generosity, giving the party a pile of loot so they're prepared for a particularly dangerous battle.

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#6148: Sep 19th 2025 at 5:05:58 PM

[up][up][up] Not just (North) American, it's also the norm in many European countries. I agree some disclaimer about that should be added about it being regional, and within that it's fading with more women just keeping their surname. I would also remove that parenthetical, I don't see the problem.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
animuacid The girl of the window from Astyr residence in Lilysthia's grounds Since: Jan, 2024 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
The girl of the window
#6149: Sep 20th 2025 at 5:14:12 AM

The description of Handsplay in Theater has a long list of ways the trope can be subverted. Is it necessary? I also want to ask about the soft-split between "Mutual", "Perverted" and "Accidental".

Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6150: Sep 20th 2025 at 7:29:13 AM

Some tropes do that. It does look somewhat unpolished...


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