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Trope Description Improvement Drive

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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

Azorius24 Knight of Solace from the bonnie, bonnie banks o' Loch Lomond (Five Long Years) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6102: Aug 21st 2025 at 10:10:02 PM

You read my mind... ahem. Only leaving the tropes that are essentially actiony and girly is absolutely something I'm for. Your list seems about right. I'm not 100% sure about Female Fighter, Male Handler, since only one half of the duo is a girl, but I'm not kicking any shins because of it.

Malady (X-Troper)
#6103: Aug 22nd 2025 at 6:12:02 AM

Awesome! Before I trim the index, where should the other tropes in the list go, if they shouldn't be deleted?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo (Trinitroper) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#6104: Aug 22nd 2025 at 9:49:19 AM

Maybe keep them under a "Related tropes" header that is not indexed?

Trailblazer of old tropes. (She/her)
Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#6105: Aug 23rd 2025 at 1:10:04 AM

So on Getting Eaten Is Harmless, there's this bit in the description:

Whales are commonly invoked by writers for this trope across various media, simply because the huge sea mammals were poorly understood for most of human history. Many cultures, even those that have hunted them, hold the cetaceans in awe and feature them in their mythologies. Stories of whales destroying ships and swallowing humans are often heard in many folklores' tales, even though nowadays we know whales are generally shy and easily spooked by people. Not to mention that, despite their immense mouths, it's mostly impossible for one to devour large prey such as us due to how narrow their throats are. Despite all this, whales are still used, since they continue to captivate the imagination. Oceans are not required. Sharks and other large fish are a common alternate option.

This may result in explosive indigestion. When the hero himself simply proves to be inedible, it's Too Spicy for Yog-Sothoth.

This used to be on Swallowed Whole and is now on Getting Eaten Is Harmless. Apparently, it's been copied over verbatim and, Wall of Text aside, has nothing to do with being harmlessly eaten — especially because it brings up how whales cannot consume humans, indicating it's still about Swallowed Whole and does not fit the current article at all. There was another bit that was also moved from that article to Getting Eaten Is Harmless, but I think that one makes perfect sense where it is now.

Any suggestions what should be done? Cut it, rewrite it, move it back to Swallowed Whole, leave it be? This is the entry that removed it and the associated troper added it to the other page and it appears to have been done unilaterally; there is a discussion but it makes no mention of moving the paragraphs, only clarifying fatality.

Malady (X-Troper)
#6106: Aug 23rd 2025 at 8:19:36 AM

Just sorted out Action Girl: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.ActionGirl&page=8#edit45279162

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
MonaNaito Since: Jun, 2011
#6107: Aug 23rd 2025 at 9:36:11 AM

The description for Crime of Self-Defense includes the following paragraph:

"Also, similar to the before mentioned double-standard, it's much easier for a woman to win a self-defence claim than it is for a man, especially when the attacker was male, both in real life and in fiction. This is because women tend to get more sympathy than men and courts will often instinctively want to give the woman the benefit of the doubt (due to their naive belief that Females Are More Innocent). For example, a woman who kills her abusive husband can get acquitted if she can convince the court of how terrified for her safety she was. Meanwhile, if you're a man who kills his abusive wife for the same reason, good luck with trying to get the court on your side."

The Real Life aspect of this claim does not seem to be based in fact, at least in the US and the UK. According to statistics from the ACLU, "The average prison sentence of men who kill their female partners is 2 to 6 years. Women who kill their partners are sentenced on average to 15 years, despite the fact that most women who kill their partners do so to protect themselves from violence initiated by their partners".

Edited by MonaNaito on Aug 23rd 2025 at 12:42:08 PM

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6108: Aug 23rd 2025 at 10:50:53 AM

[up]Sounds like a clear cut if the statistics disprove it.

Theriocephalus Amateur Veteran from gimme a map and a moment and I can tell you Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Amateur Veteran
#6109: Aug 23rd 2025 at 4:50:00 PM

Seems like it's just plain minsinformation, then. Cut.

Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#6110: Aug 26th 2025 at 1:47:20 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Bumping as it's been a couple of days with no responses.

ozchess cat bastard (she/her) from quadling country Since: Jun, 2024
cat bastard (she/her)
#6111: Aug 26th 2025 at 7:01:26 PM

fwiw the Crime of Self-Defense example was added in one edit back in 2022 (with a few tweaks since then). is it still worth it to send a notifier?

it's beginning to look a lot like christmas...
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#6112: Aug 26th 2025 at 10:12:16 PM

I prefer to not sent notifiers for something that happened over 9 months ago.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#6113: Aug 30th 2025 at 10:31:25 AM

Bumping again as it's been several more days.

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#6114: Aug 30th 2025 at 2:40:27 PM

[up] I agree it fits Swallowed Whole better. Is there a reason why it was removed?

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Eggy0 Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her) (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Wizards Don't Own Cats (she/her)
#6115: Aug 31st 2025 at 1:59:30 PM

[up] There was no provided reason; I already mentioned it was done unilaterally. The paragraph was there, then one day someone just... moved it without an edit reason. The only bit of attempted discussion — done by the same troper two weeks prior — makes no mention of this being the intended change, only really saying "distinguish it from Getting Eaten Is Harmless by saying this trope is only in effect if the eating is fatal" and that they'd implement it if there was no protest, then it got one "protest" comment a few months later. Removing entire paragraphs and moving them to another article certainly doesn't sound like clarifying fatality.

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#6116: Aug 31st 2025 at 2:08:49 PM

It's probably good to distinguish them, but I can't parse that comment and I agree that moving that paragraph does nothing to clarify things.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6117: Sep 1st 2025 at 8:17:18 AM

Evil Reactionary ends with:

No Real Life Examples, Please! Otherwise, we'd just say "every fascist who ever was" and be done with it.

That's... misleading. Whatever "fascism" is these days (I honestly have no idea what this word even means now, it's mostly used as an insult), it didn't use to be about nostalgia gone mad (which is the core of the trope). Cut the last sentence?

Edited by Veanne on Sep 1st 2025 at 8:17:28 AM

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
MonaNaito Since: Jun, 2011
#6119: Sep 1st 2025 at 10:23:33 AM

[up][up] Ehh, kinda? The idea that society has "degenerated" in some way and needs fascism to purge it of the undesirable elements of modernity or progressivism that led it astray is a fairly common fascist sentiment. This isn't new to the definition of the word; "fascism is reaction" is a quote attributed to Mussolini.

The sentence doesn't particularly need to be there (it could be moved higher in the description instead, there's a bit that already mentions the trope in relation to Nazis) but it's not inaccurate.

Edited by MonaNaito on Sep 1st 2025 at 1:27:53 PM

GearFriedTheKnight BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century. from The nearest road that can be raced (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century.
#6120: Sep 1st 2025 at 10:39:42 AM

As said, reactionary was always "reaction" to perceived progress to turn the clock back to how it was "before", contrasting conservative which was about freezing the clock at how it was (current discourse destroyed political vocabulary).

Fascism is reactionary by nature. It was born as a reaction to the Red Years, two years of constant protests, strikes, and great growth for the left-wing parties in Italy. It always aims to "restore the past".

To say fascism lost meaning is one of the most wrong things I've read in a while. No, fascist hasn't become an insult. They're very much around, to the point they're back in governments (including Italy, much to my chagrin)

Edited by GearFriedTheKnight on Sep 1st 2025 at 7:40:40 PM

''There's no magic in tuning; yet, it's something that tends to escape from any logic."
petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#6121: Sep 1st 2025 at 1:03:37 PM

Whether the there are actual fascists in government, or it's primary used as an insult or whatever is not the topic of this thread and in fact is among the banned topics of the forum. That being said, the trope in question doesn't disallow real life examples because fascists would appear in the example list, or even be the primary item in said list. It's disallowed because categorizing real people as heroes or villains is against the wiki rules.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
Theriocephalus Amateur Veteran from gimme a map and a moment and I can tell you Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Amateur Veteran
#6122: Sep 1st 2025 at 3:43:40 PM

I would note that, while fascism is reactionary by nature, there are and have been quite a lot of reactionary viewpoints and political systems before the development of fascism in the early-mid 1900s, and there are still plenty of reactionary movements that aren't fascistic.

(Broadly, I'd characterize fascism as a movement based on a rejection of modernism, anti-intellectualism, statism, glorification of militarism, action, and obedience, and xenophobia — reactionarism is only one element.)

So on that basis, while the sentence isn't wrong, it also misleading by acting like a broad category ("evil reactionarism") and one subset of that category ("fascism") are synonymous.

Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#6123: Sep 1st 2025 at 10:08:17 PM

[up] Yes - two groups of people may overlap, but that doesn't make them one group (same for groups of beliefs).

I'd say petersohn's proposition is the best - simple, to the point, no pesky definition problems. This is not a political discussion site, this is a fiction discussion site. Which doesn't allow calling people villains.

Summing it up, the "fascist" sentence is kind of a landmine. It sits there quietly until someone steps on it and then there's a huge mess and torn off legs flying. This is why I'd cut it.

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6124: Sep 2nd 2025 at 6:13:13 AM

Yeah, let's change it to the catch-all "as a morality trope, No Real Life Examples please," as petersohn suggested.

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#6125: Sep 5th 2025 at 2:26:14 PM

A few weeks ago, I brought Police State up in TRS because of a description mismatch — specifically, it talks about an oppressive police force rather than a police state as the term is commonly understood — and, after a while, was directed to bring it up in this thread, instead. I figure that its description should be changed to reflect the usage of the trope (i.e. an oppressive state where the government uses the police in an invasive, totalitarian manner) and perhaps expanded.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.

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