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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#851: Aug 23rd 2013 at 6:41:01 AM

So whether or not an article should have an example list doesn't fall in this thread's scope?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#853: Aug 25th 2013 at 8:30:54 AM

Any think this paragraph in Hot Scientist is unnecessary? E Kono Mai removed for being "Unnessecery". While I'm usually for shorten trope descriptions I don't see how isn't superfluous to point out a trope largely runs on Rule of Sexy.

This, of course, completely ignores the fact that most labs in Real Life have very strict dress codes for the sake of personal safety. For example, most require those with long hair to have it all completely tied back while doing lab work. Also, most of them strictly prohibit shoes that don't adequately cover the feet, such as sandals, flip flops, and heels. Appropriate clothing is also compulsory - shorts and bared midriffs are obviously never allowed. But, of course, safety and practicality are completely trumped by the Rule of Sexy. Male examples tend to follow the dress code more often than not. To Hollywood's credit, at least scientists on TV usually remember to wear their safety goggles...

edited 25th Aug '13 8:31:16 AM by captainpat

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#854: Aug 25th 2013 at 8:33:34 AM

I would leave it actually; without it, the trope becomes "scientist who is also hot".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
m8e from Sweden Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
#855: Aug 25th 2013 at 9:04:06 AM

Seeing the suggested images for Master Computer (and some of the examples), I think we might need to re-add the original first paragraph or something like that to make it clearer.

A modern computer network spreads the processing load over multiple machines. If any one of the machines goes down, the network remains operational. This was not always so. Back when computing and computer networks were new, computing hardware was monstrously expensive. Consequently a single computer carried the processing load while numerous dumb terminals provided the interface. If that machine craps out, so does the network.

Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#856: Aug 25th 2013 at 11:09:02 AM

Hot Scientist: I would restore that paragraph. I think it's necessary to clarify why this is considered a trope, and not just a reflection of the fact that people in shows tend to be attractive.

Master Computer: I think the current third paragraph conveys that information well enough; I don't see a need to add that back.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#857: Aug 25th 2013 at 11:49:58 AM

Mentioning Hollywood Homely here. Reading outside sources, examples, the image and the laconic, it sounds clearly like "People of average (by actor/actress standards) attractiveness are called unattractive".

However, the description rambles a lot about "actors/actresses are attractive", to the point that people are confusing it with this YKTTW of mine.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#858: Aug 27th 2013 at 11:34:13 AM

I just hacked out a huge chunk of Butterfly of Doom and moved it to Analysis.Butterfly Of Doom. Of course, it also needs some serious example cleanup.

edited 27th Aug '13 11:37:52 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
nemui10pm from outer space Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#859: Aug 28th 2013 at 11:21:00 PM

I'm doing cleanup for Family-Unfriendly Aesop. There's a lot of misuse, leading me to think that the description might have to be rewritten to be more clear about the definition. The trope is supposed to be "a valid and deliberate Aesop that makes the audience uncomfortable because it's unconventional and goes against traditional values", but many people are using it as "an immoral or questionable Accidental Aesop created by Values Dissonance or bad execution".

edited 28th Aug '13 11:21:28 PM by nemui10pm

A genius, a philosopher, an abstract thinker
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#860: Aug 28th 2013 at 11:35:59 PM

There have been TRS threads for that before, but none of them have really made any progress.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#861: Aug 29th 2013 at 12:20:31 AM

I can only see 1 TRS on that.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nemui10pm from outer space Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#862: Aug 29th 2013 at 12:31:08 AM

[up] Same here, I assume you're talking about this TRS thread? Though there are other threads that mention it - two IP threads, a mention in the the Unfortunate Implications TRS thread and my cleanup thread.

The TRS thread seem to have died due to lack of direction, so perhaps I should just note down possible solutions to this problem and wait for a TRS slot.

A genius, a philosopher, an abstract thinker
captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#863: Aug 29th 2013 at 5:02:14 PM

I feel like the description of Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette can work without the three paragraphs above the final one. It's fairy long for something that's just pale skin, brown hair, and creepy.

Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#864: Aug 29th 2013 at 5:56:00 PM

I oppose. I find all the paragraphs helpful except the next-to-last (which doesn't really have anything to do with the trope).

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
lexicon Since: May, 2012
#865: Aug 29th 2013 at 7:15:08 PM

I think the part of the next to last paragraph is good where it says, "Comics and cartoons have also been known to tint characters' skin tones pale green etc..." It's related to earlier when it mentions the Wicked Witch because the witch often has greenish skin. The other color variations can be a stand in for white if they're light enough. The third to last paragraph looks like it should be on Raven Hair, Ivory Skin instead of this.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#866: Aug 30th 2013 at 9:43:22 AM

The last paragraph of Eagleland's description — specifically, the second sentence and onwards — seem to unnecessarily exclude examples of US-American characters who consider their country as being stuck in Type II (i.e. "America the Wretched") and want to "revive" it to a Type I (i.e. America the Utopia).note 

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#867: Aug 31st 2013 at 5:30:05 AM

No one has anything to say about Hollywood Homely's description?sad

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#868: Aug 31st 2013 at 6:32:34 AM

I'm not sure it's as simple as a description rewrite, Septimus. There's nothing that stands out to me as obviously extraneous; although it could be considered a tad wordy, it's mostly relevant to the trope.

Sounds like you're trying to squeeze something into a tight space. You may want to go to TRS if you're that concerned about it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#869: Aug 31st 2013 at 6:44:01 AM

Nah, I was just concerned about the material causing some confusion. I can live with it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Whitecroc Since: Dec, 2010
#870: Sep 1st 2013 at 6:38:24 AM

Not A Subversion has a section tacked on at the end that is either a joke or someone trying to justify partial subversions. Am I cleared to remove it?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#871: Sep 1st 2013 at 8:06:41 AM

Seems like an example section for me. I would not mind tossing it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#872: Sep 1st 2013 at 8:35:54 AM

I can't tell if that's supposed to be a stinger or if someone really thought it was a good idea. I'd say cut it; it doesn't add to the clarity of the page.

MagBas Mag Bas from In my house Since: Jun, 2009
#873: Sep 1st 2013 at 1:50:30 PM

Felony Misdemeanor mention Values Dissonance in three of their four variants:

"Writers believe this is as wrong as they are showing it. In this case, the "felony" part is from the writer, so this overlaps with Values Dissonance. Strawman Politicals and Digital Piracy Is Evil are the most common forms of this. A prime source of Narm."

"Writers use Values Dissonance for dramatic effect. This is common in Dystopias, police states, histories, and cults. But it can also be used to make organizations look like this when they aren't, like with Straw Dystopias. But thanks to Values Dissonance, this is often about real cultures from the past or present."

" Writers invoke Values Dissonance for Comedic Effect. A lot of the well-written animated shows, even dating back decades, would do this. And Sit Coms will do this as well. Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking or Selective Enforcement is often invoked here."

Values Dissonance is ymmv and Felony Misdemeanor is non-ymmv.

edited 1st Sep '13 2:43:33 PM by MagBas

Lophotrochozoa Since: May, 2012
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#875: Sep 1st 2013 at 6:05:15 PM

[up][up]And the first one is a legitimate generic use of Values Dissonance, though I'd change "overlaps" to "can overlap".


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