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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#5651: Sep 19th 2024 at 10:16:49 PM

It lists masculine counterparts: Fake-Hair Drama and Dodgy Toupee, although Dodgy Toupee refers back to Hairstyle Malfunction, which may be a bit confusing.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5652: Sep 20th 2024 at 5:27:57 AM

But they are not counterparts, they refer to different concepts.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Negacube Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#5653: Sep 20th 2024 at 6:08:26 AM

Eight of the eleven paragraphs in Tokyo Rose's description are just descriptions of historical examples and context. Should I make a Real Life folder, move them there, and trim the longer examples, or could they go to a brand-new Analysis page?

Edited by Negacube on Sep 20th 2024 at 9:08:55 AM

number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#5654: Sep 24th 2024 at 8:56:16 PM

[up]Those look like they probably should be real life entries.

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#5655: Sep 24th 2024 at 10:00:35 PM

I wanted to do a slight rewrite of Gatling Good, because while the content is generally fine, I wanted to flesh some details out, and the description as a whole seems a bit disorganized paragraph-wise in terms of what Gatling guns/rotary guns are, why they're designed the way they are, and how they're depicted in fiction and why.

Rewrite below:

    Gatling Good 

Ever since Richard Gatling's 1861 invention, the rapid-firing rotary gun has had a special place among BFGs. They're well-recognized for featuring multiple rotating barrels, a practical design choice to accompany their intensely high rate of fire — shooting a ton of bullets in quick succession creates a ton of heat, with the rapid cycling between multiple barrels for bullets to go through mitigating the risk of overheating and weapon damage.

With conditions like those in mind, it's unsurprising that they're really powerful, effectively the gun equivalent of a chainsaw. There's generally just an undeniable attraction to a gun which can produce high enough rates of fire to cleanly trim hedges, cut down trees, or, in the case of the GAU-8 Avenger, saw tanks in half, and having a distinct-looking visual element with its spinning barrels adds to the "cool" factor.

The Gatling gun is likely to function as a bigger, significantly more powerful version of a regular machine gun, requiring hulking mountains of muscle to move them, or some kind of vehicle. If one gets used, you can expect it to give a nice steady buzz as it spews a constant stream of death (or, as per The Coconut Effect, a sort of "dakka dakka dakka" sound as if they were a .50 Cal Browning). It may be present even if Energy Weapons are abundant in the setting, as Kinetic Weapons Are Just Better, you the creators may combine the best of both worlds and make an energy-based version of the Gatling. Usually invokes Hyperspace Arsenal, as few media depict both the guns and the vast bins of ammunition they require; the ones that do, though, often resort to depicting it via an Ammunition Backpack.

One frequently exaggerated detail about Gatling guns is their need to spin up preemptively, usually with the sound of them whirring their barrels before shooting being their equivalent of a Dramatic Gun Cock, indicating that things are about to get hardcore. Video games also frequently depict Gatling guns as needing to wind up before they're able to be shot, but both of these are usually done in fiction just for the sake of dramatic effect and game balance, as most real-life Gatling guns are ready to fire and spin at full power more or less immediatelynote .

Additionally, modern super-fast Gatling guns actually make a strange, deafening buzzing sound in the bass register (5,000 tiny explosions per minute equals 83.3Hz, similar to the sound of a very large truck engine). Some of them, like the Phalanx anti-missile cannon, have an even more aggressive buzz to them comparable to an electric lawnmower or high-yield fan. Because they start at a lower rate of fire and then spin up to a higher one in distinct steps (in such designs, they do not actually begin spinning the barrels until it fires the first shot and they require a moment to come up to speed), this gives them two or more distinct "notes" of how they sound.

Lastly, in Real Life, rotary cannons are mounted in military planes, especially fighters, ground attack aircraft, and helicopters, and on ships in Close-In Weapons Systems (CIWS). According to Cracked (and the ATF), owning one of these things is perfectly legal in the United States due to a Grandfather Clause. They're merely prohibitively expensive.

Edited by number9robotic on Sep 24th 2024 at 10:02:17 AM

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#5656: Sep 24th 2024 at 10:32:36 PM

If anything I think the description needs to be trimmed a bit.

Do we really need the details on the precise register that a gatling gun's firing sound falls into?

number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#5657: Sep 24th 2024 at 10:39:34 PM

[up]I personally think it's interesting to have as context for why Gatling guns don't typically sound like normal machine guns (like most films, tv, and games imply they do), though I wouldn't object to removing it if it is unnecessary. Maybe just limiting it to a note?

Edited by number9robotic on Sep 24th 2024 at 10:40:01 AM

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#5658: Sep 25th 2024 at 8:05:06 AM

It goes beyond the point of the trope. That's the issue. It doesnt matter whether or not its "interesting", it's about not bloating a description with needless trivia.

There's also a weird bit of "you the writers might choose to do this". That's natter and can be cut too.

Edited by ArthurEld on Sep 25th 2024 at 8:07:32 AM

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#5659: Sep 25th 2024 at 8:07:54 AM

I think that the first time the description mentions that gatling guns make a buzzing noise instead of the stereotypical dakka-dakka is fine, as it relates how the trope is often used inaccurately. Later when it details the sound of specific types of gatling guns is not important for the trope.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#5660: Sep 25th 2024 at 8:11:03 AM

There should be an Analysis.Gatling Good page.

Kirby is awesome.
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#5662: Sep 25th 2024 at 7:50:09 PM

Fair enough. To be clear, I'm not a firearms expert who really knows about a lot of the technical aspects of how Gatling guns work, I just included some details just because I wouldn't wanna unilaterally remove details from before — if they are considered unnecessary and folks here agree to it, so be it.

Revised rewrite:

    Gatling Good 

Ever since Richard Gatling's 1861 invention, the rapid-firing rotary gun has had a special place among BFGs. They're well-recognized for featuring multiple rotating barrels, a practical design choice to accompany their intensely high rate of fire — shooting a ton of bullets in quick succession creates a ton of heat, with the rapid cycling between multiple barrels for bullets to go through mitigating the risk of overheating and weapon damage.

With conditions like those in mind, it's unsurprising that they're really powerful, effectively the gun equivalent of a chainsaw. There's generally just an undeniable attraction to a gun which can produce high enough rates of fire to cleanly trim hedges, cut down trees, or, in the case of the GAU-8 Avenger, saw tanks in half, and having a distinct-looking visual element with its spinning barrels adds to the "cool" factor.

The Gatling gun is likely to function as a bigger, significantly more powerful version of a regular machine gun, requiring hulking mountains of muscle to move them, or some kind of vehicle. If one gets used, you can expect it to give either a nice steady buzz or a jagged "dakka dakka dakka" as it spews a constant stream of death. It may be present even if Energy Weapons are abundant in the setting, as Kinetic Weapons Are Just Better, you the creators may combine the best of both worlds and make an energy-based version of the Gatling. Usually invokes Hyperspace Arsenal, as few media depict both the guns and the vast bins of ammunition they require; the ones that do, though, often resort to depicting it via an Ammunition Backpack.

One frequently exaggerated detail about Gatling guns is their need to spin up preemptively, usually with the sound of them whirring their barrels before shooting being their equivalent of a Dramatic Gun Cock, indicating that things are about to get hardcore. Video Games also frequently depict Gatling guns as needing to wind up for a few seconds before they're able to be shot, but both of these are usually done in fiction just for the sake of dramatic effect and game balance, as most real-life Gatling guns are ready to fire and spin at full power more or less immediatelynote .

Additionally, most fictional portrayals of Gatling guns have them sound more or less identical to smaller machine guns with relatively lower firing speeds. In reality, modern Gatling guns actually make a strange, deafening buzzing sound in the bass register — for one example, see the Phalanx anti-missile cannon, which has an aggressive buzz comparable to an electric lawnmower or high-yield fan. Because they start at a lower rate of fire and then spin up to a higher one in distinct steps (in such designs, they do not actually begin spinning the barrels until it fires the first shot and they require a moment to come up to speed), this gives them two or more distinct "notes" of how they sound.

For more on their application in Real Life, we have Useful Notes pages on their use in military planes, especially fighters, ground attack aircraft, and helicopters, and on ships in Close-In Weapons Systems (CIWS).

Fun fact: According to the ATF), owning one of these things is perfectly legal in the United States due to a Grandfather Clause. They're merely prohibitively expensive.

Edited by number9robotic on Sep 25th 2024 at 7:50:28 AM

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#5663: Sep 25th 2024 at 8:34:07 PM

Inspirationally Disadvantaged suffers from an issue of Type Labels Are Not Examples, listing three "flavors" such portrayals come in — but the three "flavors" are close enough in description that I do believe this is one solid trope, and thus just needs a description rewrite. Before I write one, is my reasoning solid, or no?

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#5664: Sep 25th 2024 at 10:35:26 PM

[up]Type Labels Are Not Examples is when subtypes are labelled as "Type 1", "Type 2", etc. This trope has descriptive names for the subtypes, which should be fine.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#5665: Sep 25th 2024 at 10:37:09 PM

[up] Got it, thanks. Evidently I didn't read into that as closely as I should have.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
TheLivingDrawing Lucas the Dreamer from The Town of Clayton Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Lucas the Dreamer
#5666: Sep 26th 2024 at 12:50:04 PM

I was wondering if the description for Facial Composite Failure could be improved by adding that there is a grain of Truth in Television thanks to the fact that police sketches are drawn to exaggerate key features or would that just be pointless natter?

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Sep 26th 2024 at 3:50:27 PM

Once Upon A Time.
petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#5667: Oct 2nd 2024 at 12:13:40 AM

I have suggestions to some minor changes to Inspirational Martyr.

I think the article should mention Messianic Archetype. I'd add it to the list in the "Compare" paragraph.

..., Messianic Archetype (becoming a martyr is a common trait for these characters).

Though at this point it might be worth making the paragraph an actual list.

There are two spoiler warnings, of which I'd remove the first one.

From this part:

No Real Life Examples, Please! - the term has been linked to politics these days and we know what that entails.

I'd remove the "these days", as the trope has always been linked to politics, it's not a new thing.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
Veanne Since: Jul, 2012
#5668: Oct 4th 2024 at 11:51:24 AM

From the bottom up: I agree with the "these days" point, as well as two spoiler warnings being excessive. But not necessarily with the Messianic Archetype - Inspirational Martyr is not themselves a messiah, they believe the messiah so much to give their life.

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#5669: Oct 4th 2024 at 12:48:21 PM

My idea about the connection is that the messiah is often themself a martyr. An Inspirational Martyr is someone who dies (or at least suffers) for a cause and thus brings followers to said cause. A Messianic Archetype is someone whose role in the story is based on that of Jesus, which happens to often involve dying for a cause and inspiring followers. Thus the overlap between the two tropes.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
Admiralakbar1 Admiral Ackbar from none of your business Since: Dec, 2013
Admiral Ackbar
#5670: Oct 7th 2024 at 10:20:54 AM

Reading through Where da White Women At?, a lot of the description feels like it belongs more on the Analysis page than the main one—it talks way more about the historical context of the taboo rather than talking about the taboo itself or aspects of it. The writing tone also feels oddly out-of-place compared to other articles on touchy racial topics.

I'd like to do a rewrite that better emphasizes how the the trope is played straight (e.g., portraying black men as inherently lustful, predatory, or fetishistic white women), and how the trope is commonly subverted or deconstructed over the last half-century.

Admiralakbar1 Admiral Ackbar from none of your business Since: Dec, 2013
Admiral Ackbar
#5672: Oct 7th 2024 at 12:21:28 PM

The rewrite for Where da White Women At?

    Where Da Rewrite At? 
Laconic: Interracial relationships between black men and white women are stereotyped as fetishistic, evil, or taboo—with the black man taking the brunt of the blame.
Although interracial relationships in general are viewed poorly by many, relationships between black men and white women carry particular baggage and stereotypes.

While it exists to an extent in every part of the world with significant white or black populations, it's especially pronounced in places with a history of (often white-on-black) slavery, colonialism, or discrimination—the Anglosphere in general, and the United States and South Africa in particular. Racial and sexual hierarchies there led to a Double Standard where a white man/black woman relationship wasn't judged as harshly as a black man/white woman relationship; the former at least kept the white man in the dominant role, while the latter had a black man in the dominant role and was thus more transgressive and scandalous.

The most common stereotype of black men in relationships with white women is that their attraction isn't pure; they actually have a Race Fetish and white women are purely Lust Objects for them. Black men may also be portrayed as having an Extreme Libido, preferring one-night-stands over long-term relationships, and disappearing as soon as they're confronted with commitment or fatherhood. At worst, they're portrayed as Corruptors who delight in turning white women into sinful harlots, or outright predators who target white woman for abduction and rape.

White women in the relationship have similar stereotypes, though expressed differently. They only want black men for sexual thrills: they desire the Forbidden Fruit, they're Dating What Daddy Hates, or they heard that Black Is Bigger in Bed. They may also be depicted as morally loose and promiscuous in general—besides the stereotype of black male promiscuity, it's also assumed that if they have no racial standards for partners, they must have no sexual standards at all! This could be because they were sinful from the start, or a sexual encounter with a black man (willful or not) set them down a lifelong path of interracial depravity.

In the past, these relationships were simply depicted as immoral on one or both members' part, and any condemnation they received was justly earned. However, as attitudes on interracial relationships softened and this became a Discredited Trope, works increasingly focused on the unjust criticism the couple receives from their family, friends, and community. Love-Obstructing Parents and accusations of being a Race Traitor are a common factor on both sides of the relationship. The black man in particular may be accused of having internalized racism or trying to "act white".

A subtrope of Maligned Mixed Marriage and Race Fetish. Counterpart to Black Gal on White Guy Drama. Compare Black Is Bigger in Bed and Black Jezebel Stereotype for other black sexual stereotypes, Latin Lover and Shiksa Goddess for other white woman/nonwhite man relationship tropes, and Greedy Jew and Yellow Peril for other racial panics with sexual undertones.

Note: This trope is not about any and all relationships between a white woman and black man. It should specifically be about ones that embody (or are accused of embodying) these specific stereotypes and fetishes. No Real Life Examples, Please!

Edited by Admiralakbar1 on Oct 7th 2024 at 3:26:55 PM

Azorius24 Knight of Solace from the bonnie, bonnie banks o' Loch Lomond (Five Long Years) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
Knight of Solace
#5673: Oct 7th 2024 at 4:26:56 PM

Bumping my Large Ham rewrite (mostly to tidy and remove repetition) again as I would like to get a few more opinions on it?

Edited by Azorius24 on Oct 7th 2024 at 12:27:25 PM

"The only thing which is certain, is that something will happen".
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#5674: Oct 8th 2024 at 1:03:18 PM

Regarding Where da White Women At?, the new description is better than the old one, but in my opinion it doesn't fix the page's main problem, which is that it doesn't get the definition right. Right now it is still very close to "Maligned Mixed Marriage, but for black man-white woman couples", a definition with one foot in The Same, but More Specific. Also somehow it's also for black man with a Race Fetish for white women, which is something quite different from a Maligned Mixed Marriage if you think about it.

Personally I think the trope needs to be TRS'ed to fit the definition suggested by the trope name; namely, the racist idea that white women exert an irresistible sexual attraction on black men (or even generally non-white men), and that black men want nothing more than to have sex with a white woman. Hence white women need to be watched and guarded from being hit on, picked up, seduced, molested, raped by black men. Because sex with a black man—even if consensual—would defile a white woman and, in a wider perspective, compromise the purity and nobility of the white race.

As you see, this definition does not require the black man and the white woman to be in a relationship. Many of the examples that are already on the page do not involve a relationship. Take this:

While not the Ur-Example, one of the earliest trope codifiers for films of this trope is The Birth of a Nation (aka The Clansman), a controversial but influential 1915 film in which the Ku Klux Klan is founded in large part because the white men need to defend the honor of their women, who are being taken away to be raped by Always Chaotic Evil black men.

Edited by LordGro on Oct 8th 2024 at 1:03:39 AM

animuacid The girl of the window from Astyr residence in Lilysthia's grounds Since: Jan, 2024 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
The girl of the window
#5675: Oct 12th 2024 at 12:13:10 PM

[up][up] The Large Ham stuff looks fine.

I want to update this paragraph about Visual Novels in No Dub for You.

Visual Novels localized in America usually don't get English dubs (particularly from Sekai Project) because visual novels are a very niche interest in America, and most of them don't have much voiced dialogue anyway. Usually the only visual novels to get English dubs are developed by indie developers or Americans themselves.

First, there's a lot of Americentrism when people all over the Western world enjoy the same English translation. Then, I don't think it's correct to single out Sekai Project because the other major VN translating companies (JAST, MangaGamer, Shiravune and NekoNyan) never do dubs either. Finally, what's more common nowadays are fully-voiced Visual Novels (with the exception of the protagonist) and the amount of dialogue being very large and costly to dub.

With that said, I suggest the follwing rewrite:

Visual Novels localized to English usually don't get English dubs because visual novels are a very niche interest outside Japan, and most of them have so much voiced dialogue it would be really costly. Usually the only visual novels to get English dubs are developed by indie or Western developers.


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