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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#5451: May 7th 2024 at 1:55:37 PM

[up] I agree, plenty of American shows come to mind.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
loserswithwifi (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5452: May 8th 2024 at 2:05:13 PM

Can I remove this part of Brits Love Tea’s description?

The great British author George Orwell (Nineteen Eighty-Four, Homage to Catalonia) was an avid tea drinker, even going so far as to write an article on how to make "A Nice Cup Of Tea"; Douglas Adams also wrote one. In general, the typical British attitude to tea is nicely summed up here.

Having links to a bunch of random articles and a song in the middle of a trope description feels a bit weird.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#5453: May 8th 2024 at 2:06:40 PM

I'd keep them

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5454: May 9th 2024 at 4:43:05 AM

[up][up]Agree to remove. The works could be moved to examples, if they're not there already.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on May 9th 2024 at 4:43:24 AM

loserswithwifi (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5455: May 10th 2024 at 2:35:11 AM

[up] They’re all listed as examples already, if that affects anything.

Does anyone else have any input on this?

Rainbo6 Hey Painty!!! from wouldn’t you like to know? (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Hey Painty!!!
#5456: May 10th 2024 at 6:31:13 AM

The description for But Not Too Evil takes more time to potshot at Moral Guardians than to actually explain the trope.

Working to help keep TV Tropes in tip-top shape (she/her).
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#5457: May 10th 2024 at 2:06:24 PM

I agree with not having links in the description unless it's to an acknowledged authority in the field. And that doesn't apply to tea because it's drunk indoors, not out in the field.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5458: May 11th 2024 at 5:00:24 AM

[up][up]Agree that those could be slimmed down a lot. Not removed completely, though, since it is one valid reason for the trope.

[up]Oh ha ha. grin

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on May 11th 2024 at 5:00:49 AM

number9robotic (Experienced Trainee)
#5459: May 11th 2024 at 6:58:39 PM

Always in Class One is about how the classrooms of protagonists in a lot of media (mostly eastern works) are "Class X-A" or "Class X-1". There's a weird bit near the end talking about toying with the trope, though:

When this is invoked, class rivalries tend to be with class B or 2, which is invoking this trope twice in the same work. Too lazy to pick a class number or letter again? Go with the second option, you were already too lazy to pick one the first time, may as well stay consistent.

In fact, a common aversion is to place the main character in the aforementioned second class, simply to try and not look like this trope. Or the third, in order to further avoid it. In fact, it's just plain difficult to tell if an aversion was deliberate or not, with few exceptions.

I'm inclined to remove that last bit in particular just because aversions of tropes pretty much always meaningless anyways, and that's something it even acknowledges. Also, the general tone of the description is weirdly focused on its "laziness" — that a writer putting a main character in "Classroom X-1" is "due to laziness or otherwise". Permission to remove/rewrite these entries for being weirdly negging?

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#5460: May 12th 2024 at 12:02:15 AM

Solar Sail includes this paragraph:

For interstellar voyages, the ship is usually propelled by a giant laser cannon in space shooting at the sail.

...first, that shouldn't work, any more than you can propel a boat by pointing a fan at the sail. Second and more importantly, I don't think I've ever seen that in fiction?

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
MyFinalEdits Delete message from Parts Unknown (Spin-off Series) Relationship Status: Cast away
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#5461: May 12th 2024 at 12:32:47 AM

Me neither.

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#5462: May 12th 2024 at 5:46:46 PM

[up][up][up] I agree with removing them. Those sentences always bothered me but I wasn't sure what to do about them.

[up][up] The usual proposal is to have a solar-powered laser at a Lagrange point that the ship rides, with very careful precision to keep the laser aligned with it. The problem is that the further away from the sun a solar sail goes, the less effective it is, and it's impossible to approach another star. So providing the light pressure as a coherent beam is the only likely way it will reach another solar system. There's even a suggestion that a probe would release a reflector when it reaches its destination and ride the same beam back.

It doesn't turn up often in fiction because a slower-than-light ship that depends on an external power source is not what space opera usually runs on, but the concept gets a nod in Civilization VI.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Azorius24 Knight of Solace from the bonnie, bonnie banks o' Loch Lomond (Five Long Years) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
Knight of Solace
#5463: May 13th 2024 at 1:56:33 AM

Hello, I've noticed that Non-Lethal Bottomless Pits had a rather bare-bones (and repetitive) description despite being a nigh-on Omnipresent Trope, so have drafted an expansion explaining why they exist in a bit more detail?

    Original Description 
In many video games, falling into a Bottomless Pit doesn't kill you; it just mysteriously transports you back to the start of the area. Sometimes this has no ill effect or explanation at all — it just never happened. Other times you lose a bit of health in the process, possibly implying that it did happen and you spent God only knows how long climbing back up. Even in games where extra lives are given out like candy, you sometimes find this effect.

Also used in RPGs in which it would be kind of silly and frustrating to punish the player for missteps (sometimes they also have an Invisible Hand Rail).

Often accompanied by Puzzle Reset.

In this special case of Death Is a Slap on the Wrist, more mundane hazards such as evil monsters and sharp blades force you to restart from the last Checkpoint or Save Point when you die, but falling into lava, down Bottomless Pits, into water, or whatever reduces your health by the same amount as a monkey hitting you on the head with a coconut. Possibly even less than that.

A Super-Trope to Bottomless Pit Rescue Service.


    Revised Description 
In many video games, falling into Bottomless Pits, Spikes of Doom, water, lava or other similar hazards doesn't kill you, even if extra lives are usually given out like candy. Instead it results in a special case of Death Is a Slap on the Wrist, where the player is mysteriously transported back to the start of the area without having to return to the last Checkpoint or Save Point, or whatever happens when something else kills you. Sometimes this has no ill effect or explanation at all — it's as if the pits were portals all leading back to the same point. Other times it might cause a Puzzle Reset, and/or you lose a bit of health in the process, possibly implying that you did fall to the bottom and spent God only knows how long climbing back up.

Of course, Tropes Are Tools, and this one is commonly employed as an Acceptable Break from Reality. Platforming segments in games are usually intended to be challenging, and the player is expected to go plummeting into the abyss several times while they figure out a way across: they would quickly start getting exasperated if they had to sit through a full Game Over Loading Screen every time they made a misstep (unless it's a certain kind of game). Also common in Wacky Racing games, where it would seem unfair if careening off the often-precarious track resulted in an instant loss.

Compare and contrast Edge Gravity, which often functions as an "Invisible Hand Rail", as an alternative. A Super-Trope to Bottomless Pit Rescue Service.

EDIT: New description added.

Edited by Azorius24 on May 14th 2024 at 10:32:40 AM

"The only thing which is certain, is that something will happen".
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#5464: May 13th 2024 at 5:02:48 AM

[up] Better, though I don't like "...it just never happened". Maybe "as if the pits were slides all leading to the same point".

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Azorius24 Knight of Solace from the bonnie, bonnie banks o' Loch Lomond (Five Long Years) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#5466: May 13th 2024 at 4:39:30 PM

"it did happen" might be expanded into "you did fall to the bottom", otherwise it's fine by me.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Azorius24 Knight of Solace from the bonnie, bonnie banks o' Loch Lomond (Five Long Years) Relationship Status: love is a deadly lazer
Knight of Solace
#5467: May 15th 2024 at 3:39:29 AM

I've done the same for Hostage Video, again quite a common trope with a very minimal description. However I'm a bit concerned that this might be expanding too much? But I wanted to address some more of the ways this trope is commonly used.

    Original description 
A more modern version of the classic ransom note, gaining popularity in recent years with the increasing use of the internet and real life use by groups like Al-Qaeda and the Islamic State.

Basically, our particular hostage is tied to a chair with a flag backdrop, while one or more bad guys in balaclavas look menacing with firearms. Then the hostage is forced to a) denounce his country b) read out his captors' demands c) beg his nation's leaders to help or d) a combination thereof.

Other variations include placing the hostage in mortal peril with a ticking clock.

If the bad guys don't get what they want, things might turn into a Snuff Film.


    Revised description 
The screen flickers into life, showing a grainy close-up of a body bound to a chair in what looks like an Abandoned Warehouse. A bag covers their head, and masked figures toting assault rifles stand to either side. Suddenly, one of them pulls away the bag to reveal the gaunt and frightened face of a hostage, who begins, haltingly, to read out a message: "These are our demands..."

So begins the Hostage Video, filmed by the hostage-takers to provide evidence that the unfortunate victim(s) shown are truly at their mercy, while doubling as a psychological intimidation tactic, especially if the hostage is forced to denounce themselves, their country or organisation. The trope has largely supplanted the classic ransom note in the modern day, due to the increasing prominence of the internet and its infamous utilisation in Real Life by terror groups such as Al-Qaeda and Islamic State.

It can arise in a variety of contexts, from a villain's demonstration to the hero that I Have Your Wife, to a group of hijackers threatening a massacre if they don't get what they want, to a captured leader being forced at gunpoint to encourage La Résistance to lay down their arms and submit to their new overlords. If the hostage-takers want to horrify the recipients (and the audience), the hostage will bear visible marks of beatings and torture — the message may even become a Snuff Film if there are multiple hostages and the hostage-takers want to prove, in an especially grisly way, that they're not bluffing, or if their demands are not met. To add extra jeopardy, the hostage takers will usually include an ultimatum, or even go so far as to add a countdown to the video or live feed of the hostage.

If the hostages' location is unknown, their would-be rescuers will usually try and trace the source of the video through deduction and Hollywood Hacking wizardry. This is almost guaranteed to fail, with the baddies having expected this, planting false leads that drive the rescuers into a trap and/or allow them to escalate their already-unreasonable demands.

However, a particularly canny hostage will be able to use the video as a means to get their own message out, whether that's through code words, sign language, or Morse Code communicated through finger-taps or blinks.

Very likely to appear in a Post-9/11 Terrorism Movie. Compare murder.com for another trope where torture and death is broadcast over the internet.

"The only thing which is certain, is that something will happen".
Riolugirl Just "Rio" is fine! from Planet Sparkles (spaaaarklleeees...) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: It's a god-awful small affair
Just "Rio" is fine!
#5468: May 19th 2024 at 12:50:58 AM

Is this single line in the trope description for Urban Fantasy necessary, or just complainy natter?


Or, more cynically, a work is Urban Fantasy if it has a half-naked woman on the cover, and Paranormal Romance if it has a half-naked man on the cover.

"Hark! For your greatest fears manifest in yours truly!" (She/Her) (Current focus: Image Pickin')
FSharp Resisting a rest Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: I wanna know what love is
#5469: May 19th 2024 at 12:57:07 AM

[up] I notice that Paranormal Romance also has the line. Make of that what you will.

I don't just Wiki Talk the talk. I Wiki Walk the walk.
Malady (X-Troper)
#5470: May 19th 2024 at 4:07:48 AM

More relevant for Sexy Packaging.

And Paranormal Romance, instead of Urban Fantasy general.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5471: May 19th 2024 at 11:16:01 AM

[up][up][up]I support cutting it (on both pages) as being complainy.

MyFinalEdits Delete message from Parts Unknown (Spin-off Series) Relationship Status: Cast away
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#5472: May 22nd 2024 at 4:39:06 PM

Does anyone feel that the list of common traits in Mayincatec makes the description go for too long? I'm not saying they should be cut and nothing else, I think they could be moved to an Analysis tab (the page doesn't have one yet) and expanded upon. If you people agree, I can undertake that job, and also explain whatever other misconceptions or exaggerations on pre-Columbian history are present in fiction.

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5473: May 23rd 2024 at 5:02:12 AM

[up]It could definitely stand to be shortened, as long as any relevant information is retained in Analysis.

MyFinalEdits Delete message from Parts Unknown (Spin-off Series) Relationship Status: Cast away
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#5474: May 23rd 2024 at 1:10:11 PM

Got it. I'll start working on it later today, thanks!

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#5475: May 23rd 2024 at 2:16:29 PM

Diving Save 's description is WAY TOO SPECIFICALLY about saving a toddler from a car.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.

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