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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#5101: Aug 20th 2023 at 11:42:19 AM

Standard Snippet has a list of "subtropes and snippets with their own pages". Since a subtrope must be listed instead of a supertrope when it's used, while a subpage must not, we're considering splitting this list. y/n

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#5102: Aug 20th 2023 at 11:49:55 AM

Yeah, Weird Moon had issues with Artsy Moon, until the latter was cut and rolled into the former as a redirect. It looks like Weird Sun wasn't sure which one it wanted to be, tried to cover both, and didn't really know how to do so.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#5103: Aug 20th 2023 at 12:33:19 PM

...TBH that actually strikes me as a strong argument against Artsy Moon having been cut in the first place. I never knew it existed until now, but Weird Sun and Weird Moon both bothered me historically, in that "in-universe weird sun/moon" and "Artistic License sun/moon" are pretty distinct concepts.

Edited by nrjxll on Aug 20th 2023 at 2:33:26 PM

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#5104: Aug 20th 2023 at 1:59:33 PM

[up]I was the one who TRS'd Artsy Moon, here's the link to its very quick thread. Unfortunately the wick check wasn't archived to show all of this, but as the OP says

  1. the page wasn't thriving at 16 wicks, even after a previous thread that ended with crosswicking it the previous year to hopefully increase wicks
  2. the examples had 0 consistency across them in terms of what the moon looking weird meant in-universe. Sometimes it was relevant, other times it was just stylistic.
  3. there wasn't even enough consistency in terms of how the artist made the moon look weird to rework it into a stock weird moon trope

idk anything about Weird Sun, but whatever Artsy Moon was trying to be, it was failing at. ergo why the thread ended so quickly

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 20th 2023 at 5:00:34 AM

Tremmor19 he/him (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
he/him
#5105: Aug 21st 2023 at 5:48:02 PM

A Side Order of Romance opens with this paragraph

In works based around The Team, whether a Work Com or a fantasy action show, sometimes writers want to introduce a romance subplot, but for one reason or another need to find a Love Interest outside of the team. Maybe everyone but the protagonist is in a relationship, maybe you have Chromosome Casting and Incompatible Orientation, or maybe the team dynamic just calls for No Hugging, No Kissing. One of the most common ways around this is to have one of the mains fall in love with a waitress or barmaid.

nothing about this trope indicates that it has to be a member of The Team, nor do the examples skew this way. Everything else is just about a waitress being the love interest, and them meeting through her job. Can I remove this paragraph?

[down] okey doke. Ill see if I can get one

Edited by Tremmor19 on Aug 21st 2023 at 8:51:26 AM

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#5106: Aug 21st 2023 at 5:50:37 PM

[up]no that'd be a TRS change since it would be fundamentally changing the scope of the trope. that paragraph has been there since the trope's draft [1]. if that's an unnecessary restriction, then you'd need to show most examples ignoring it.

Tremmor19 he/him (Y2: Electric Boogaloo)
he/him
#5107: Aug 21st 2023 at 5:51:00 PM

as far as weird sun/weird moon— I agree its pretty weird that "weird in universe" is not differentiated from "presumably normal, but drawn with an unusual style". maybe theres more overlap than I think? Like, are there a lot of examples that never clarify if its actually meant to be different than our moon?

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#5108: Aug 21st 2023 at 5:54:38 PM

[up][up][up] Once you've done a wick check, just add the thread to the TRS Queue and you'll get a slot when you reach one.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 21st 2023 at 8:54:46 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Malady (X-Troper)
#5109: Aug 22nd 2023 at 12:20:48 PM

Laconic.You Didnt Ask:

Withholding information because it wasn't requested.

Main.You Didnt Ask potholes "dismissal" as Not Now, Kiddo. But is that actually You Didn't Ask? Or is it more Cannot Spit It Out ala The Kane Chronicles:

* Cannot Spit It Out: Walt never manages to explain just what he and Anubis have been discussing but that's mostly Sadie's fault.
Anubis: Couldn't get a word in edgewise?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#5110: Aug 23rd 2023 at 12:01:08 AM

Devastating Remark has a ton of little one-sentence paragraphs. I was looking to condense it, although I'm not sure if it should be trimmed down even more.

    Current Description 
Interpersonal relationships are complicated and often messy. And humans are emotional beings. In the course of a conversation, usually an argument, though it doesn't have to be, a person will say something that will cause another person to have an emotional breakdown. Often, they will be reduced to a weeping mess, with Inelegant Blubbering or Running Away to Cry being common results, though they could equally be left in a cold, stunned silence.

The Devastating Remark could have been something private shared with the person, which they are now airing publicly, or at the very least are now using as a cudgel against the person they're attacking verbally. It could be an Old Shame that they never wanted to bring up again or a past trauma that they wanted buried in the past. It could even just be that someone's honest response left someone devastated, either because it revealed something they hadn't expected and didn't want to accept, or in some cases, something they firmly believed but never wanted to confirm.

The character might say something rude about someone, only for it to be revealed that the person is right behind them.

If someone else overhears the remark and/or sees the aftermath, it could lead to a What the Hell, Hero?, Calling the Old Man Out, an Indignant Slap, or an equally scathing "The Reason You Suck" Speech to the offender.

The words themselves might literally hurt the person. They might just be Innocently Insensitive, too. This may, intentionally or not, cause the subject to stop dead in their tracks from shock.

It might come from a character impulsively saying something without thinking, especially if they have reached the limit to their patience.

Sometimes the person who said it will immediately regret it, perhaps not even knowing that what they'd said would provoke a reaction until it did. Or they realize they crossed a line in the heat of the moment, but now that it's said, it can't be unsaid.

In some cases, it might require the intervention of a Third-Party Peacekeeper to restore relations.

Frequently overlaps with Wham Line and Did You Think I Can't Feel?. Sometimes the remark can be an Ironic Echo / Meaningful Echo, and this can also result in a "Not So Different" Remark (intentional or not) by having the devastation come from the character realizing that someone they dislike is basically everything they could be. If intended as advice, Brutal Honesty almost always results in a Devastating Remark.

Compare to Break Them by Talking, which usually requires a deliberate effort, while a Devastating Remark can be delivered with perfect innocence. For example, in casual conversation, someone could say "I saw your love interest/spouse in X location the other day", with X location being nowhere near where they'd claimed to be, but very much where it would confirm cheating. It is also a singular remark, instead of a speech, usually far more direct and on point, not requiring any build-up or deconstructing of someone's failures or flaws.

While an Armor-Piercing Question or Armor-Piercing Response can overlap, the Devastating Remark can also be delivered without prelude and in no way needs to be interrogative or a reply to same.

In some instances, even a simple Blunt "No" or Big "NO!" can serve as a Devastating Remark.

A Death Notification is usually devastating to the loved one(s) being notified.

May also result in a character entering Heroic Safe Mode, if they don't go full Heroic BSoD.

It can result from a case of That Came Out Wrong or Innocently Insensitive. If the remark is devastating enough it could result in a Heroic BSoD, Despair Event Horizon, or even Driven to Suicide.

Also compare Kirk Summation and Misery Trigger. Supertrope to Minor Insult Meltdown. I Have No Son! is a common subtrope.

See also More Insulting than Intended. Compare Close to Home and Trauma Button.

    Proposed Edit 
Interpersonal relationships are complicated and often messy. And humans are emotional beings. In the course of a conversation, a person will say something that will cause another person to have an emotional breakdown, externally or internally. External breakdowns will reduce a character to a weeping mess, with Inelegant Blubbering or Running Away to Cry being common results. Internal breakdowns are often the result of a character entering Heroic Safe Mode or going full Heroic BSoD. For some, the remark could lead to a Despair Event Horizon, or even suicide.

Sometimes the person who said it will immediately regret it, perhaps not even knowing that what they'd said would provoke a reaction until it did. Or they realize they crossed a line in the heat of the moment, but now that it's said, it can't be unsaid. The words themselves might literally hurt the person. They might just be Innocently Insensitive, too.

The Devastating Remark could have been something private which has now been made public, or at the very least is now used as a cudgel against the person they're attacking verbally. It could be an Old Shame that they never wanted to bring up again, a past trauma that they wanted buried, or a Death Notification. In some instances, even a simple Blunt "No" or Big "NO!" can serve as a Devastating Remark. This may, intentionally or not, cause the subject to stop dead in their tracks from shock.

It might come from a character impulsively saying something without thinking, especially if they have reached the limit to their patience. Or, the character might say something rude about someone, only for it to be revealed that the person is right behind them. If someone else overhears the remark and/or sees the aftermath, it could lead to a What the Hell, Hero?, Calling the Old Man Out, an Indignant Slap, or an equally scathing "The Reason You Suck" Speech to the offender. In some cases, it might require the intervention of a Third-Party Peacekeeper to restore relations.

Frequently overlaps with Wham Line and Did You Think I Can't Feel?. Sometimes the remark can be an Ironic or Meaningful Echo, and can also result in a "Not So Different" Remark (intentional or not) by having the devastation come from the character realizing that someone they dislike is basically everything they could be. If intended as advice, Brutal Honesty almost always results in a Devastating Remark. While an Armor-Piercing Question or Armor-Piercing Response can overlap, the Devastating Remark can be delivered without prelude and in no way needs to be interrogative or a reply to same.

Compare to Break Them by Talking, which usually requires a deliberate effort, while a Devastating Remark can be delivered with perfect innocence. For example, in casual conversation, someone could say "I saw your love interest/spouse in X location the other day", with X location being nowhere near where they'd claimed to be, but very much where it would confirm cheating. It is also a singular remark, instead of a speech, usually far more direct and on point, not requiring any build-up or deconstructing of someone's failures or flaws.

Also compare Kirk Summation and Misery Trigger. Supertrope to Minor Insult Meltdown. I Have No Son! is a common subtrope. See also More Insulting than Intended. Compare Close to Home and Trauma Button.

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#5111: Aug 28th 2023 at 3:16:31 PM

[up] An improvement, though it's still rather long.

Souls-like RPG has this: "And then there are the bosses, who are in a class all their own." I feel like the potholing to SNK Boss is treating the trope as "Hard boss, but like, really hard" when it's specifically for type of AI opponent in a PvP Fighting Game (which Souls-like RPG are not). So I suggest changing it to "Just about any boss would be That One Boss in another game".

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#5112: Aug 29th 2023 at 8:56:05 PM

[up] Yeah I agree with changing that pothole. Stuff like that is not only confusing, but contributes to Trope Decay.

Here's another take on Devastating Remark's description. Shortened a bit removing excessive reasons since Tropes Are Flexible.

    Proposed Edit Take # 2 
Interpersonal relationships are complicated and often messy, and humans are emotional beings. In the course of a conversation, someone will say something that will cause another person to have an emotional breakdown, externally or internally. External breakdowns will reduce a character to a weeping mess, with Inelegant Blubbering or Running Away to Cry being common results. Internal breakdowns are often the result of a character entering Heroic Safe Mode or going full Heroic BSoD.

Sometimes the person who said it will immediately regret it, perhaps not even knowing the remark would provoke a reaction until it did. Or they realize they crossed a line, but now that it's said, it can't be unsaid. It could have been something private which has now been made public, an Old Shame or past trauma that they never wanted brought up again, or a Death Notification. This may, intentionally or not, cause the subject to stop dead in their tracks.

Frequently overlaps with Wham Line and Did You Think I Can't Feel?. Sometimes the remark can be an Ironic or Meaningful Echo, and can also result in a "Not So Different" Remark (intentional or not) by having the devastation come from the character realizing that someone they dislike is basically everything they could be. While an Armor-Piercing Question or Armor-Piercing Response can overlap, the Devastating Remark can be delivered without prelude and in no way needs to be interrogative or a reply to same.

Compare to Break Them by Talking, which usually requires a deliberate effort, while a Devastating Remark can be delivered with perfect innocence. Also compare Kirk Summation and Misery Trigger. Supertrope to Minor Insult Meltdown. I Have No Son! is a common subtrope. See also More Insulting than Intended. Compare Close to Home and Trauma Button.

Edited by Hello83433 on Aug 29th 2023 at 8:56:37 AM

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#5113: Aug 29th 2023 at 9:10:38 PM

I was looking at Jive Turkey, and there seems to be a weird disconnect in the description versus how it's generally used.

Basically the description implies it's weird, out of date slang (with it coming right up to the line of saying the trope is essentially Totally Radical but for black people, but not saying that) and the laconic saying it is "supposedly" hip slang, implying it actually isn't. The description says "if people ever talked like this, they don't anymore."

Fair enough (I mean, I'm not sure we need another trope that is basically Totally Radical, but for people of color) but that's besides the point. Yet you'll find plenty of examples that are generally vague, and seem to imply it's anytime a black person uses the slightest bit of slang.

Killmonger from the MCU, for example, has an entry...when the most slang he uses is very casual, totally normal things like "wassup" or saying "they" instead of "their".

So...is the trope supposed to be about stereotypical slang used by black people, or any example of AAVE in general? Or is it about weird, made up examples of slang that black people only used in fiction, and in the past?

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#5114: Aug 29th 2023 at 10:44:36 PM

[up]Yeah, from what I can see the main difference (other than the racial difference Jive Turkey heavily implies), is that Totally Radical is meant to be understood as an appeal to a younger audience whereas Jive Turkey is meant to be an in-universe characterization, which is a theoretical difference, but not so much a practical one. Like, the only way you can gauge "appeal to a younger audience" as a difference is via Word of God or with mentions of audience reactions, but Totally Radical neither requires the former nor is an Audience Reaction trope.

So in practice, these end up landing around the same area.

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 29th 2023 at 10:44:46 AM

Malady (X-Troper)
#5115: Aug 30th 2023 at 11:41:03 AM

Does Trauma Button have to trigger Repressed Memories? Or just general feelings?

Because the description says memories, the Laconic says "emotional trauma." and there's this example of a non-mnemonic effect:

  • Marito from Aldnoah.Zero is the Sole Survivor of the 1999 conflict between Martians and earthlings. Fifteen years later; he is still deeply traumatized and suffers from PTSD. In episode 5, he attempts to use a mecha, but his vision blurs and he shakes too uncontrollably to do so.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Khoshekh6 Since: May, 2022
#5116: Aug 31st 2023 at 2:04:50 PM

So there was this draft recently that was intended to be a female variant of Clark Kent Outfit, except that trope is already unisex

Looking at the article, i can see why the sponsor didn't realize it. In addition to the male trope name and image, it starts out using male pronouns.

Im thinking we should edit this to make it more gender neutral

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#5117: Aug 31st 2023 at 8:54:24 PM

^Editing the description to sound more gender neutral sounds fine to me.

Macron's notes
Shadeblade11 (Troper Journeyman)
#5118: Sep 1st 2023 at 3:00:41 PM

This comes from confusion than anything else, but That One Boss has a note on its description where "Final Bosses and Wake-Up Call Bosses cannot be That One Boss without being overly hard by their standards."

"overly hard by their standards" feels contradictory. I'm under the impression that Final Bosses and Wake-Up Call Bosses are supposed to 'normally' be barred from being examples because of it. The note apparently existed all the way back in 2013, but I've been getting conflicting info that they're allowed now or they're not. Is there a way to reword this without a trope repair?

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#5119: Sep 1st 2023 at 3:08:44 PM

So, going back to my earlier post about Jive Turkey, anyone have any ideas on how we can fix the description to make it match the examples more?

Or does it maybe need to go to TRS?

JDMA12 He/Him from the 31st Century (Troper in training)
He/Him
#5120: Sep 1st 2023 at 3:10:04 PM

[up][up]Also... isn't That One Boss an Audience Reaction? Feels weird to say specific types of bosses can't normally apply when if fans do think they're That One Boss they... should?

Idk enough about video games tho, maybe there's a reason I'm missing

ETA: Okay it's just on the home page, not the Audience Reactions index, so idk

Edited by JDMA12 on Sep 1st 2023 at 7:11:27 AM

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#5121: Sep 1st 2023 at 9:14:41 PM

[up][up]Given how you describe the examples, I don't think matching the current examples is desirable in the first place. It probably does need TRS, though, if only because of the unclear description.

Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Shadeblade11 (Troper Journeyman)
#5123: Sep 4th 2023 at 12:28:54 AM

[up]Hmm... It feels like it could be even more succinct. I'll give it a crack.

    Edit Take # 3 
Interpersonal relationships are, oftentimes, messy. Someone might say something that will cause the other to react poorly. If they break down, they're either reduced into a weeping mess or are just stunned silent.

The person who said it might regret it, perhaps not knowing the remark would provoke a reaction. Or they realize they crossed a line, but also know it can't be unsaid. Regardless of what it is and the intent, it will cause the subject to stop dead in their tracks.

Frequently overlaps with Wham Line and Did You Think I Can't Feel? Ironic Echo or Meaningful Echo can also be related. While an Armor-Piercing Question or Armor-Piercing Response can overlap, a Devastating Remark doesn't necessarily need these tropes to work on its own.

Compare to Break Them by Talking, a more deliberate effort than Devastating Remark. Also compare Kirk Summation and Misery Trigger. Supertrope to Minor Insult Meltdown. I Have No Son! is a common subtrope. See also More Insulting than Intended. Compare Close to Home and Trauma Button.

Edited by Shadeblade11 on Sep 5th 2023 at 5:30:03 AM

loserswithwifi (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5124: Sep 4th 2023 at 2:08:32 AM

Beauty, Brains, and Brawn’s description has two sections comparing the trope to the Freudian Trio and The Enneagram. They’re not really relevant, so can they be cut?

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#5125: Sep 4th 2023 at 5:36:58 AM

[up]I'd say so. the two have nothing really to do with each other and this feels like an unnecessary shoehorn not dissimilar to the issue with Four-Temperament Ensemble's description being needlessly bloated with a bunch of irrelevant shoehorned comparisons.

and on that note, I got curious. Checked out Beauty, Brains, and Brawn's history and that section was unilaterally added by Grey Jedi 1995 [1]. Same user was also one of the ones expanding Four-Temperament Ensemble's description with countries, etc. [2]. Idk if we should call them in to get them to stop / do something with that info, but it is the same user. Their edit history is mostly for tropes related to personality type systems, so this is definitely an...area of interest for them

Edited by amathieu13 on Sep 4th 2023 at 5:37:10 AM


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