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What it says in the title. EDIT: Link to auxiliary sandbox page

Some trope descriptions suffer from problems. Some possible ones:

  1. Attention Deficit... Ooh, Shiny!. A paragraph starts explaining element X of the trope, then it wanders off to explain element Y. Two paragraphs after that we're back at element X again. Nary a conjunction is in sight.
  2. Too long. Stuff that should go in analysis, or maybe in another trope, or maybe nowhere, going in the main space. Too much scrolling required before you can get to the examples.
  3. Fan Myopia. Some "this is how it happens in WRESTLING!" dissertation is taking up half of the page on a trope about white t-shirts. We already have a thread on that one - discussion about the general phenomenon goes there, specific candidates to deal with go here.
  4. General lack of balance and order. Something is emphasized at the expense of the other aspects of the trope, even though it has no right to be. Consequences of the trope come first, then related tropes, then a mention of the Trope Codifier, then common scenarios where it comes into play...
  5. Failure to answer the fundamental question up front: What is this trope? Not what it "might" be or what can "possibly" happen - what is it?
  6. Not enough meat. Juicy stuff is missing, like: When is the trope likely to turn up? Why would an author use it? In what ways does the audience often react? Which tropes are related to it and how?
  7. Spelling and grammar issues.
  8. The first line which makes honest-to-god sense is below the fold. e.g. Example as a Thesis that makes you go "huh?" instead of "ooooh".
  9. Bad Writing. Purple Prose, pitching the trope, Wanton Cruelty to the Common Comma.
  10. Egregiously Fan-Myopic quote.
  11. Jaywalking.

Bring up trope pages here so we can work on them. If no one does in a while, I'll try to dig something up.

edited 22nd Sep '11 10:48:59 AM by TripleElation

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#4576: Jan 6th 2023 at 11:33:01 AM

Unsure about the first question, but I don't think self-demonstrating pages need examples (see Yandere).


Flip Personality is too short and basic. Any ideas on how to improve it?

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#4577: Jan 6th 2023 at 1:23:12 PM

Is it supposed to allow for cases of cases where you have two minds in one body due to internal DID as opposed to possession/symbiosis?

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#4578: Jan 6th 2023 at 6:11:11 PM

I think it does. I mean the description doesn't have to detail all ways the reasons that cause the trope, as long as the character in question switches quickly between two or more different minds.

Edited by selkies on Jan 6th 2023 at 5:28:54 PM

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Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#4579: Jan 6th 2023 at 6:52:31 PM

Apologies for the delay, I've posted the Villain Has a Point wick check over to the wick project thread for feedback.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
SoyValdo7 I mainly fix indentation issues from La tierra de lagos y volcanes Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
I mainly fix indentation issues
#4580: Jan 7th 2023 at 5:05:57 PM

Word Association Test has an image with a quote that is too large to put under the image. Permission to put it in the header.

Valdo
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#4582: Jan 8th 2023 at 7:33:52 AM

So this got added to Oh, Crap! by ~James Swann.

Sometimes, even the audience can have this moment when they realise just how bad a situation is for a character and the character hasn't yet realised.

Seems to us like something we should delete as encouraging misuse of the trope as an audience reaction.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#4583: Jan 8th 2023 at 7:34:34 AM

Yep.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#4584: Jan 8th 2023 at 7:35:02 AM

Yep. This ain't Shocking Moments.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 8th 2023 at 6:35:17 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#4585: Jan 8th 2023 at 8:37:58 AM

K, deleted

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#4586: Jan 8th 2023 at 9:20:03 AM

It may help to change a bit the sentence further down "The effectiveness of this moment..." to make it clear it's the effect on the audience.

I've been trying to bring the description of First Law of Gender Bending up to date, and it's ready at Sandbox.First Law Of Gender Bending. Do others agree that it's an improvement, and any suggestions for it?

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#4587: Jan 8th 2023 at 10:18:07 AM

Why do you want to change it, tho? Is there something wrong with the current description, or did you just want to remove the Unfortunate Implications paragraph?

Besides, "...ultimately reinforcing the woman's original femininity because Women Are Wiser." I know this is from the original description, but what does femininity have to do with being wise?

Otherwise, your proposed description is fine by me.

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#4588: Jan 8th 2023 at 11:03:14 AM

Hollywood Autism's description is quite overly-long and complainy, including potholes to Flame Bait and Unfortunate Implications. The laconic is even worse.

Edited by NitroIndigo on Jan 8th 2023 at 7:03:29 PM

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#4589: Jan 8th 2023 at 1:19:17 PM

It definitely needs a rewrite, but regardless, the description has to detail the inaccuracies in pop culture's portrayal of autism, which might come off as "ugh, fiction can't seem to get autism right and don't do their damn research!" to some anyway.

I don't know much about autism to propose a rewrite myself; do you have any ideas for what to improve other than removing the Flame Bait and Unfortunate Implications potholes?

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Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#4590: Jan 8th 2023 at 2:27:13 PM

My reasons to rewrite are:

1) Pronouns. The very first sentence uses "her" to refer to sex and not gender (since it's about unwilling sex changes) which is against modern understanding.

2) The second paragraph mixes in not wanting to change back, which is covered by the second law. I wanted to keep them separate.

3) The third and fourth paragraphs are a bit difficult to follow. I wanted them to be neater.

Overall it's a trope that has received very little attention for some ten years. I wanted to update it to today's writing standards. I intend after this to look over examples, especially to check the pronouns.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#4591: Jan 9th 2023 at 4:46:20 AM

Prequel includes this reference:

On one hand, this allows for excellent Foreshadowing as well as an opportunity to further expand the universe of a work

However, The Foreshadowing page then specifically mentions that this is a Call-Forward if it happens in a prequel.

Should we update Prequel to link directly to that instead?

NitroIndigo ♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves from West Midlands region, England Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
♀ | Small ripples lead to big waves
#4592: Jan 9th 2023 at 4:47:01 AM

[up]Sure.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#4593: Jan 9th 2023 at 1:32:20 PM

I've been told in the ROCEJ thread that the description for Easy Sex Change might be bloated with excessive details, which may partially be my fault as I've been making a lot of additions to it these past few days. One solution would be to completely rewrite much of it, and create an Analysis subpage for the excess details; does anyone agree?

    Possible rewrite 

In Real Life, the process of transition for transgender people is often a long, complicated process, which may or may not involve numerous different procedures including psychological counseling, hormone replacement therapy, and a variety of plastic surgeries. The exact path the transition takes is different for every individual, and so are the results, but the process tends to occur gradually over the course of several years.

In fiction, this process is frequently boiled down to a single quick and easy surgery. A character may be shown walking into a hospital, and walking out the very same day looking like their new gender, with no recovery period needed before they can use their new private parts. Alternatively, they may only need to take hormones, which will take effect impossibly quickly and have much more dramatic effects on both their mind and body than in real life.

Either way, the result will almost always be an Attractive Bent-Gender, possibly played by a different actor or actress. Surgical scars are rarely seen. Exceptions to this will usually be from works by less trans-supportive creators who want to portray the results of the surgery as unconvincing, ugly, and/or frightening.

Sex change surgery that is reversed is another common signifier of the Easy Sex Change. In stories that make sex change surgery easily reversible, even characters who aren't transgender may choose to have one in order to hide their identity, treating it as simply the next level of being Disguised in Drag.

This trope is also common in video games with Character Customization. Unless the game completely forbids changing your character's gender, it will rarely be more complicated than talking to a certain NPC and paying a small fee. Sometimes, it may even be as simple as opening the "edit appearance" menu.

Often followed by Old Friend, New Gender. Not to be confused with Gender Bender, which involves sex changes that (usually) are even easier, and driven by magic or Applied Phlebotinum. This trope is more about idealized (occasionally highly idealized) versions of Real Life SRS.

Contrast Trans Tribulations, which can include a more realistic portrayal of the difficulties of transitioning.

Edited by Zuxtron on Jan 10th 2023 at 12:10:48 PM

TheLibrarian1701 Since: Dec, 2022
#4594: Jan 10th 2023 at 9:47:44 AM

I'd been working on a draft TLP I called "Dead Idol Disillusionment" that I viewed as a subtrope of Broken Pedestal. However, the comments in the draft, as seen [1] suggested that it was too narrow to warrant a subtrope, and that rather than attempt that, I bring Broken Pedestal here to suggest reworking the description to include instances of the Broken Pedestal being deceased.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#4595: Jan 10th 2023 at 1:52:14 PM

Revisiting the Brought Down to Badass example mentioned a few pages back - as with Badass Normal, it seems that the trope should only apply if their powers are gone, not changed or reduced, but the intro doesn’t make that entirely clear.

Current:

To qualify for this trope, a character must have had powers at one point, had them taken away, and still kick butt. You'll find sometimes that because of their powers the character had to act rather conservatively or hold the Idiot Ball to balance it out, but when normal and forced to improvise they find themselves not holding back and subsequently smarter for it.

Proposed:

To qualify, a character must have had powers at one point, must lose them, and must still kick butt without them. If the character's powers have been changed or reduced, but they still have powers, it's not this trope (but it might be Fights Like a Normal).

Sometimes a character's powers also forced them to act rather conservatively (or handed them an Idiot Ball) to balance things out, but once powerless they start fighting in a smarter way - and can stop holding back.

How's this? Fights Like a Normal is already potholed elsewhere on the page, but the pothole's not very useful for redirecting tropers for this scenario.

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#4596: Jan 10th 2023 at 8:46:13 PM

[up][up][up] It's still too long for my liking, can you trim a bit more of it?

[up][up] Sure, we can add a line or a paragraph about dead Broken Pedestals.

[up] Good, I like it. [tup]

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Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#4597: Jan 10th 2023 at 9:21:58 PM

[up] I tried shortening it a little bit more.

selkies TOO serious! from Guess, guess, guess Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
TOO serious!
#4598: Jan 10th 2023 at 10:17:17 PM

[up] It's better now.

Uncanny Valley Hot Babes in Your Area Are Looking To Know YOU! Click Here to Sign Up for FREE! | Not quite back tbh. Don't expect much.
GoldenCityBird from the UK Since: Oct, 2018
#4599: Jan 11th 2023 at 6:23:32 AM

The Bait has quite a long and kinda-irrelevant bit involving the Five-Man Band in the middle of it. Should it be cut?

TRS Wick Cleaning
TheLibrarian1701 Since: Dec, 2022
#4600: Jan 11th 2023 at 8:38:56 AM

[up][up][up][up]

How's this:

Sometimes, the Pedestal being broken is already deceased. In most cases, it will be someone the hero/heroine knew personally, allowing for more grief and rage from a sense of personal betrayal. However, it can still occur with iconic figures held up by society whom they did not know on a personal level. They are left forever without answers because the people they want to ask can't answer anymore, not even in a press conference where someone else might ask those questions. There is no space for the deceased to defend, justify, or redeem themselves. Thus, the conflict for the living person who has learned harsh truths about their dead idol becomes more of an internal struggle.


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