Flynning is hellishly long.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Draftsman of Doom
The actual description for the main Hate Sink page needs condensing and clarification. It goes without saying that a Hate Sink is meant to be despised in contrast to other characters, but at its core, if I'm not mistaken, the Hate Sink is a character, villainous or not, meant to be despised (as a person) above all else by the audience.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Noted.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 16th 2020 at 12:11:41 PM
Rawr.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
note that they still can be praised for how they're written, i.e as a character.
I just remembered this thread exists, so reposting from Trope Talk
:
Bunker Woman is distinct from Madwoman in the Attic, for here the captive is generally not unfit for society and is a more or less ordinary person who just happens to have been kidnapped. While both are Prison Tropes, Madwoman in the Attic is about making a female character that cannot be sympathized with, while Bunker Woman—despite being anti-feminist—often features powerful female characters.
Parts of this description seem like they need revising, especially the last sentence. "Anti-feminist" is a blanket judgment that runs counter to Tropes Are Tools, "powerful female characters" is vague, and I'm not sure the claim that "Madwoman in the Attic is about making a female character that cannot be sympathized with" is actually accurate to the trope. Also maybe I'm nitpicking here, but I'm not sure about the word choice "twistedly entertains."
I was thinking of changing the second half of the last sentence to
However, then I realized the part about the Madwoman's sympathetic-ness (which the rest of the sentence is context-dependent on) might need revising.
[/end repost]
And then eroock brought up the good point that "The Bunker Woman is usually a Damsel out of Distress while the Madwoman in the Attic is just a poor victim."
What to do with these creators being wicked in Tragedy's index, leading them to be indexed when they should not be?
Are they okay, and we just use more precise index coding to cut them out, or should the index be changed to not have so much words in it?
[...]
- Downer Ending: Tragedies never end well for the protagonist.
- The Bad Guy Wins: Sub-trope of Downer Ending in which the hero loses and only the villain(s) come out on top.
- Averted with Aeschylus's Eumenides, which does have a happy ending. Aeschylus's The Suppliants likewise ends with the titular characters being granted what they wanted, namely sanctuary, but since there's going to be a war and it was the first part of a trilogy, it's an ambiguous one.
- The Bad Guy Wins: Sub-trope of Downer Ending in which the hero loses and only the villain(s) come out on top.
[...]
- The Hero Dies: The protagonists in their plays were usually killed off in the end.
- Averted with Sophocles's Oedipus the King, in which Oedipus doesn't die. In the same playwright's Antigone, there's some ambiguity about who the protagonist actually is: basically, the confusion comes from the misconception that the hero of a play is identical with its protagonist.note
Edited by Malady on Jun 19th 2020 at 8:21:30 AM
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
They're examples. They're put in the wrong page.
We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
they're also aversions and aversions should only be listed for Omnipresent Tropes
- Tragedy actually hosts examples at the bottom of its page.
I'll cut them though, citing this thread.
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
Wait, upon reading the context in full... those examples seem to be about those that avert the common elements of tragedy while still being a tragedy story.
Perhaps a little rewrite on the example section about them could be good?
We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
- They seem to be already mentioned in the Examples list, so doing nothing.
I'm helping!
The description of I Remember Because... is exclusively about the trope's appearance in Police Procedurals, to the point where I'm not entirely sure we actually allow "I remember this because..." examples from other genres.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
WRT Hate Sink, another important aspect is the narrative role the character plays. The Hate Sink often provides a vehicle for audience hate when the main villain can't fill that role. The length of the description is largely due to listing out all the ways this can happen, but it includes things like the work having No Antagonist, the main villain being inactive or in hiding, or being to inhuman to hate.
I'm fine with shortening the description, but I don't want this aspect to be removed.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
The Draftsman of Doom
A Hate Sink is a character whose intended role in the story, that is, the role the authors made for this character, is to be so despicable that the audience wants them to fail just as much as they want the heroes to succeed. The key word here is "intended"; unlike The Scrappy, the Hate Sink is a character created by an author with the specific goal of making the audience hate this character's guts.
The character in question doesn't have to be the main villain of the story, or even a villain at all. Oftentimes, the character in question is used as a counterpoint for the protagonists, or even to charismatic antagonists, assuming they are not the primary antagonist themselves, and assuming that there even is an antagonist to begin with.
The character will often show traits such as pettiness, arrogance, self-righteousness, prejudice, sleaze,and taking delight in the misery of others. There are probably at least as many tropes which can make a character detestable as there are intentionally detestable characters.
There will be occasional overlap with Evil Is Petty, where villain behaves in an unpleasant manner (variants include the Politically Incorrect Villain, Psychopathic Manchild and Slimeball). If a villain's despicable actions are sufficiently heinous, they may cross into Complete Monster territory, but detestable does not always mean heinous or vice versa, so while there can be overlap, it isn't a given by any stretch.
Remember that Tropes Are Tools: a poorly-written Hate Sink can easily become The Scrappy, if they are unpopular for the wrong reasons, while one that has more depth or superficial charm is likely to have the audience Love to Hate them. They can also end up being Unintentionally Sympathetic and/or a Designated Villain if the author dosen't give the audience a strong reason to hate them, or the audience may start Rooting for the Empire if the villain is too badass. That said, a properly written Hate Sink will largely invoke the audience's wrath as a result of their personality and/or actions, even if they are liked for other reasons.
See also Villainy-Free Villain, when the character doesn't even do anything particularly evil but just acts unpleasant. The Heel is a variant specific to Professional Wrestling. Compare X-Pac Heat, when an actor is hated outside of their role.
Fixed.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:18:27 AM
Rawr.
"while one that's just a little too unique or badass is likely to have the audience Love to Hate them."
This shouldn't sound negative. Love to Hate is actually when a Hate Sink character is written so well.
We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
The Draftsman of Doom
How are my changes to the description?
Rawr.
You also may like to note that being a Hate Sink may not stop them from being likeable in certain other ways, so long as they're still hated for their personality and/or actions.
The Draftsman of Doom
A Hate Sink is a character whose intended role in the story, that is, the role the authors made for this character, is to be so despicable that the audience wants them to fail just as much as they want the heroes to succeed. The key word here is "intended"; unlike The Scrappy, the Hate Sink is a character created by an author with the specific goal of making the audience hate this character's guts.
The character in question doesn't have to be the main villain of the story, or even a villain at all. Oftentimes, the character in question is used as a counterpoint for the protagonists, or even to charismatic antagonists, assuming they are not the primary antagonist themselves, and assuming that there even is an antagonist to begin with.
The character will often show traits such as pettiness, arrogance, self-righteousness, prejudice, sleaze,and taking delight in the misery of others. There are probably at least as many tropes which can make a character detestable as there are intentionally detestable characters.
There will be occasional overlap with Evil Is Petty, where villain behaves in an unpleasant manner (variants include the Politically Incorrect Villain, Psychopathic Manchild and Slimeball). If a villain's despicable actions are sufficiently heinous, they may cross into Complete Monster territory, but detestable does not always mean heinous or vice versa, so while there can be overlap, it isn't a given by any stretch.
Remember that Tropes Are Tools: a poorly-written Hate Sink can easily become The Scrappy, if they are unpopular for the wrong reasons, while one that has more depth or superficial charm is likely to have the audience Love to Hate them. They can also end up being Unintentionally Sympathetic and/or a Designated Villain if the author dosen't give the audience a strong reason to hate them, or the audience may start Rooting for the Empire if the villain is too badass. That said, a properly written Hate Sink will largely invoke the audience's wrath as a result of their personality and/or actions, even if they are liked for other reasons regarding their characterization.
See also Villainy-Free Villain, when the character doesn't even do anything particularly evil but just acts unpleasant. The Heel is a variant specific to Professional Wrestling. Compare X-Pac Heat, when an actor is hated outside of their role.
I don't like the phrasing either.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:29:43 AM
Rawr.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
That's...how would that work exactly? I'm not disputing it's possible more than I'm asking how it's possible. How can you have a "likeable Hate Sink"? The entire point of them is that they're a lightning-rod for audience hatred; if they have likeable qualities they stop being a Hate Sink because it implies they're not meant to be hated, or at least that they're meant to be seen as morally complex.
The Draftsman of Doom
A hate sink can have a certain level of complexity, but their detestable traits are emphasized above all else.
Claude Frollo, for example, has a moment where he considers the possibility that he may not be as righteous as he thinks, but he ignores it. And for the rest of the film, he is a self righteous, pompous, vicious, prejudiced asshat.
Rawr.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
Right; I'm not trying to say that a Hate Sink is by definition a flat character. But giving them intentionally likeable qualities that actually inspire audience sympathy means they can't be a Hate Sink by definition.
A Hate Sink can be liked unintentionally, but that's different.
Current Project: The Team
The Draftsman of Doom
Well, I guess it depends on how much emphasis is placed on a character's negative traits. Any charisma they have is superficial, any redeeming qualities they have (if any) are supposed to fall flat or take a major backseat to their damning qualities, and if there is a moment where the audience is taken in by them, the rug is pulled out from under their feet.
A hate sink can be liked for being over the top loathsome, or for being well performed, too. Again, like you said, unintentionally.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 23rd 2020 at 11:49:08 AM
Rawr.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
Right, but that's different from them being given intentionally likeable personality traits, which is what I'm arguing about.
Current Project: The Team
The Draftsman of Doom
You noticed I crossed out that last bit, right? It made no sense to me either.
A Hate Sink is a character whose intended role in the story, that is, the role the authors made for this character, is to be so despicable that the audience wants them to fail just as much as they want the heroes to succeed. The key word here is "intended"; unlike The Scrappy, the Hate Sink is a character created by an author with the specific goal of making the audience hate this character's guts.
The character in question doesn't have to be the main villain of the story, or even a villain at all. Oftentimes, the character in question is used as a counterpoint for the protagonists, or even to charismatic antagonists, assuming they are not the primary antagonist themselves, and assuming that there even is an antagonist to begin with.
The character will often show traits such as pettiness, arrogance, self-righteousness, prejudice, sleaze,and taking delight in the misery of others. There are probably at least as many tropes which can make a character detestable as there are intentionally detestable characters.
There will be occasional overlap with Evil Is Petty, where villain behaves in an unpleasant manner (variants include the Politically Incorrect Villain, Psychopathic Manchild and Slimeball). If a villain's despicable actions are sufficiently heinous, they may cross into Complete Monster territory, but detestable does not always mean heinous or vice versa, so while there can be overlap, it isn't a given by any stretch.
Remember that Tropes Are Tools: a poorly-written Hate Sink can easily become The Scrappy, if they are unpopular for the wrong reasons, while one that has more depth or superficial charm is likely to have the audience Love to Hate them. They can also end up being Unintentionally Sympathetic and/or a Designated Villain if the author dosen't give the audience a strong reason to hate them, or the audience may start Rooting for the Empire if the villain is too badass. That said, a properly written Hate Sink will largely invoke the audience's wrath as a result of their personality and/or actions.
See also Villainy-Free Villain, when the character doesn't even do anything particularly evil but just acts unpleasant. The Heel is a variant specific to Professional Wrestling. Compare X-Pac Heat, when an actor is hated outside of their role.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 24th 2020 at 9:45:36 AM
Rawr.
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
I like these introductions sometimes, they can be a good demonstration of the trope. Maybe just shorten this one a bit.
Optimism is a duty.