TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Separation of Church and State

Go To

TheGirlWithPointyEars Never Ask Me the Odds from Outer Space Since: Dec, 2009
Never Ask Me the Odds
#151: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:20:21 PM

[up][up][up] I think I see where you're coming from, in that from one perspective it's saying patriotism should have the strength of religious zeal, and things of that sort...

Personally, I find the use of religious symbols for a memorial tasteless unless it's actually symbolizing the religion of the deceased... otherwise it doesn't say anything about the deceased at all, and just seems to be advertising your own religion. At least with a flag for a trooper, they were serving the people of the nation... But that's just my perspective.

edited 17th Sep '11 7:21:19 PM by TheGirlWithPointyEars

She of Short Stature & Impeccable Logic My Skating Liveblog
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#152: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:24:46 PM

I agree that flags of whatever nation you're a part of don't really seem appropriate for a grave unless the person was particularly patriotic themselves.

I think crosses are also used so often because they're such a convenient shape. All you need is two pieces of wood nailed at right angles and there you are, simple yet recognisable grave marker.

Be not afraid...
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#153: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:26:09 PM

True. As long as there aren't any angles.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#154: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:35:21 PM

Flags make perfect sense, being that these are public servants.

I should think that would be an obvious one. It doesn't even have to be a patriot thing; they died serving the country, so the country puts the symbol above them. Very basic, I'd think.

Also, seconding the "pro-atheist =/= anti-Christian." If anything, they're making that connection here, inadvertently, and it makes people who might otherwise have supported them (i.e. me) instead decide they're jackasses and ignore them.

Yeah... state-run church is a bad idea, for the US. And the idea of "if it serves the government it can't be bad!" is idiotic; that just makes it a propaganda machine, not a vehicle of faith. Disgraceful.

I am now known as Flyboy.
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#155: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:38:17 PM

that just makes it a propaganda machine, not a vehicle of faith.

What is the difference? The essential difference, that is.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#156: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:44:01 PM

Ideally? A church is for people who already believe, broadly, the same thing to gather and talk to one another about it, etc.

I am now known as Flyboy.
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#157: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:48:50 PM

No, I meant in practice. Ideally, that would be correct, but we both know it doesn't always work out exactly like that. Religion often uses politics for its own agenda, and churches are often used to spout forth what amounts to propaganda. Instead of trying to change that (which would be extremely difficult), directing that towards the state's purpose, which should ideally mean the greatest benefit for its people, is better than allowing the religion to dominate the state's policies to everyone's detriment.

edited 17th Sep '11 7:49:37 PM by tropetown

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#158: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:50:44 PM

Keeping the church out of politics entirely is far better than giving the state religious justification for any shit it decides to do...

Divine right to rule has been dead for centuries. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

I am now known as Flyboy.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#160: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:55:26 PM

That would lead to the religion being about what's politically expedient, not what's morally right. That would be a terrible outcome.

Be not afraid...
joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#161: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:59:09 PM

USAF@If you read I Samuel you would find it funny because God was against the idea of Israel having a king.Mainly because the king would take their land,crops,his sons to serve in the army,their daughters to be servants,and saddle them with heavy taxes.However,God then gave them their wish and as the centuries went by the later kings did as God warned them.

I know you want seperation of Church and State but that's just one of God's two cents about government.

edited 17th Sep '11 8:00:16 PM by joyflower

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#162: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:07:02 PM

~shrug~

If Christians (and Jews and Muslims) read their holy texts often and realized to adapt it for several thousand years of cultural and societal shift we might not have so many problems with religion...

I am now known as Flyboy.
joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#163: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:16:07 PM

Actually with how long the Christian faith has been around its just it goes to many cultures and backgrounds.But yeah I don't want what happened in the Middle ages with the Churches where they became too corrupt which was the reason for Martin Luther to write the 99 thieses.

I am thinking that someone's faith can influence them but not to a uncosititutional level.

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#164: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:18:10 PM

Well, the state should not be subservient to the church, that's for sure. At this point, separation of the two is the best way to acheive that. The reason I advocated a measure of state control (not necessarily total control) is because it prevents the religion from growing too powerful and becoming almost like a rival power within the state, which tends to create more problems than the government would have on its own. The Middle Ages were a study in why religion should be reined in, to some degree.

edited 17th Sep '11 8:19:10 PM by tropetown

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#165: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:19:43 PM

I don't want the state to control it because that is defiantly one thing that will get them angry with many people.Then again the church was the one that kept all the knowledge that was lost from the fall of Rome.

edited 17th Sep '11 8:20:49 PM by joyflower

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#166: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:20:21 PM

If you read my previous posts, you'd notice that I said that it couldn't work in the US, for various reasons.

edited 17th Sep '11 8:20:40 PM by tropetown

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#167: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:20:33 PM

Well... usually I look at it as the corporations, unions, and government, all competing. Churches sort of... transcend this. Faith in a religion is in a different category than even patriotism, let alone simple, low-level concepts like loyalty to a job or company.

Point is, if you want to try and curb church power in a functional manner, you'll need to go the Soviet route of just stamping out faith. Since that's about the worst thing I've ever heard...

I am now known as Flyboy.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#168: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:22:58 PM

Best way to reduce the power of the church is to preach rationality~

I mean, you end up not really targeting Unitarians or anything, but those tend not to be the problem.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#169: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:23:54 PM

That would imply that churches are inherently irrational.

I am now known as Flyboy.
tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#170: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:24:23 PM

Faith in a religion is in a different category than even patriotism, let alone simple, low-level concepts like loyalty to a job or company.

Exactly why it is dangerous, if left unchecked. I would advocate separation on important matters, allow it to continue in minor, cultural areas, and keep a watchful eye on it the whole time.

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#171: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:24:28 PM

You know you will realize that even though Christianity is the biggest faith out there a lot of the other faiths are not going to be happy if you try to dampen them.

I don't know because a lot of Christians are big time fighters of aid in other countries,helping those in poverty,and fighting human trafficking.At the same time cutting off Christian influence might be a double edge sword.

edited 17th Sep '11 8:26:23 PM by joyflower

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#172: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:24:35 PM

No. Only the dangerous ones.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#173: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:25:59 PM

Now we're into the thought police. If we're after "dangerous concepts," well, we'd have to simply kill all humans, because frankly, any concept is dangerous if someone is willing to take it to the logical extreme.

What makes more sense is to have something like the Constitution to have guidelines on what rights we have and which cannot be violated, faith be damned.

edited 17th Sep '11 9:02:58 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#174: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:31:57 PM

/punts USAF

NOT WHAT I SAID.

Again, you make a decided effort to encourage rationality. You present rationality adjacent to irrationality, and let people recognize irrationality for what it is. Make Logic 101 an Elementary school class.

Religion will become less West Boro Baptist and more Unitarian, believe me.

edited 17th Sep '11 8:32:56 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#175: Sep 17th 2011 at 8:32:54 PM

Completely cutting off Christian influence isn't a good idea. Christianity is an inherent part of American culture; it's silly to hide your culture within your own nation. However, that doesn't mean that any religion should play a part in government decisions; the state needs to do what is best for itself, and by extension, its people, after all.


Total posts: 336
Top