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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#127: Sep 17th 2011 at 1:14:00 PM

Thread Hop

Simple enough solution, the crosses can be moved to private property. Then everybody should be happy.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#128: Sep 17th 2011 at 1:15:59 PM

Nah, because they're supposed to be where the incident happened, if I recall correctly.

One of the points of the memorials is to tell people to drive safer, I think...

I am now known as Flyboy.
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#129: Sep 17th 2011 at 1:16:46 PM

Then some secular signs informing people to not drink and drive might be the right response.

For what it's worth, I would be ok with that type of monument if people didn't act like jerks about these things all the time. As it is, I chalk it up to "This is why we can't have nice things"

edited 17th Sep '11 1:18:58 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#130: Sep 17th 2011 at 1:25:29 PM

I don't think "and this is why we can't have nice things" is a justification to make them take the signs down.

AA is going the entirely wrong way about this. What they need to do is make their own memorial, and then they have to avoid editorializing it. Not "some State Troopers are atheists too," and not "atheists are compassionate too!" Pretentious self-righteousness is still annoying, no matter who does it. Just make a simple memorial, and then if Utah challenges it, we bring it to the Supreme Court to shoot them down.

That is what they have to do to win.

I am now known as Flyboy.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#131: Sep 17th 2011 at 1:27:02 PM

Again, if AA made their own memorial, they would be shot down. Now, making it explicitly for the purpose of being shot down may very well be the strategic thing to do.

And to be equivalent, the memorial would have to identify the troopers as atheist, in the way that crosses identify troopers as Christian.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#132: Sep 17th 2011 at 1:29:26 PM

And I would contend that the crosses don't "identify" the troopers as anything, regardless of the intentions of the Church.

The crosses are the Church's way of saying "we believe these people are in heaven; if you believe too, pray for them." It doesn't necessarily speak to what the troopers believed.

Frankly, though, the atheists don't have a symbol to use, really. It would be a fantastic display if they did use the American flag, though, as Joyflower said...

I am now known as Flyboy.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#133: Sep 17th 2011 at 2:42:44 PM

They could use the American Atheists society logo.

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#134: Sep 17th 2011 at 2:45:01 PM

The ideal situation is a church run by the state. Since this isn't likely to happen in the US anytime soon, the government should seek to keep religion out of important state affairs. Minor things, like Christmas, crosses in public places, and religious displays are a cultural factor, and should be left alone.

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#135: Sep 17th 2011 at 2:47:06 PM

I am not sure that is an "ideal" dude, I mean it might work okay for the Co E but you have to remember cultural differences and problems there.

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#136: Sep 17th 2011 at 2:47:44 PM

Tomu@Not every athiest would be apart of that group besides a flag could say to a symbol that you died as a soldier defending this country and I don't care what you were.

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#137: Sep 17th 2011 at 2:51:14 PM

[up][up] Ideal for the country, I mean. When religion is kept in check and directed towards government interest, it tends to do less damage than when it supercedes the well-being of the nation and influences its policies for its own end. The US isn't as extreme as that, but it's showing tendencies toward this, most notably in the Christian right (which has faded somewhat in importance in recent years: no reason it can't make a comeback, though).

edited 17th Sep '11 2:52:03 PM by tropetown

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#138: Sep 17th 2011 at 2:55:29 PM

Now even then I would disagree. Religions should probably not work activly AGAINST the government, but in any truly democratic government with a state controlled religion you'd end up having a very schitzophrenic God tongue. "This year support the Lord by donating to Charity", "This year support the Lord by investing in Adidas stock!".

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#139: Sep 17th 2011 at 2:58:59 PM

They probably won't mean to act directly against the government, but there are times when church and state have conflicting interests. A state-run church (impossible in a democracy, like you said) would direct the interests of the church toward the government, not the other way around.

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#140: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:00:53 PM

Maybe, but people tend to have longer folk memories when it comes to religion. Even if you forced people to go to the church of state you'd still end up with them following the local pastor more than the bureacrat that you need them to follow.

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#141: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:02:37 PM

Oh, exactly. It wouldn't be possible to implement that in the US; my point is that this would be the ideal setup for the country, even though it couldn't work for the US at the moment.

JosefBugman Since: Nov, 2009
#142: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:04:21 PM

It would only work in a country with brainwiped individuals, and thats an impossibility not only in the US but ANYWHERE on earth. Or are you arguing this just as a general "perfect" idea, in which case, whoops. tongue

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#143: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:07:50 PM

Yep, just as a general perfect scenario; I'm not going to pretend that it's possible to put in practice at the moment, though. There have been state religions in the past, though; you could even call Communism and fascism a form of state religion.

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#144: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:08:25 PM

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, maybe American Atheists are picking their battles—they're picking this one while it's small, rather than letting it slide and maybe running the risk of it getting much larger? It wouldn't be the first time someone gave a fundie Christian mouse a cookie, after all, and then before you know it you're getting a 'clerical collar tax' deducted out of every paycheck.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#145: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:08:59 PM

I'm pretty sure there are other areas that they're NOT picking that they really really should.

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#146: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:30:38 PM

I didn't say I thought they were in the right, just that this isn't necessarily a case of failing to pick their battles.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#147: Sep 17th 2011 at 3:46:05 PM

I think that, given that they're right, that it's still a case of choosing their battles poorly. They've done that under a number of circumstances.

They should focus on atheists being mistreated, not on Christian ideals being supported.

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#148: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:10:31 PM

If they want a symbol why not use the American flag as a substitute. Solves everything and no one gets their feelings hurt.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find something tasteless about useing patriotic symbols in lieu of religious ones.

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#149: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:12:47 PM

The bottom line is, crosses IDENTIFY it as a religious symbol, even if crosses are used to denote the dead elsewhere. A "plain" tombstone for instance doesn't designate it as being a NON-religious symbol, meaning that you can't really get a true flip-side without saying "Oh hey, we're atheists," which you've already said "Oh that'd be obnoxious."

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#150: Sep 17th 2011 at 7:14:09 PM

Like I said, religion should be kept out of important decisions. However, things like crosses are a mark of American culture, and shouldn't be discouraged. Unless, of course, it's a personal decision, and people have a choice in the matter; then by all means, you can choose different.

[up][up][up]Yes, to that. Pro-atheist doesn't have to mean anti-Christian.

edited 17th Sep '11 7:15:07 PM by tropetown


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