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USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#226: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:03:34 PM

So put it on the table.

I will not stand for deprivation of rights as the product of temper tantrums by assholes. They can do it right, or I won't give them the time of day, and don't see why anyone else should, either.

I am now known as Flyboy.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#227: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:04:41 PM

It's not government supported. It's non-government dudes privately funding the use of public land.

And yes, we should be going after the douchebags on our side too and people have been pretty spineless about standing up to them. That doesn't justify lashing out against people just because you have an axe to grind with their loud minority.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:07:46 PM by Pykrete

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#228: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:06:17 PM

As I said, they can buy the land at public rates then. If it's on public land then it's considered to be government supported.

So are you guys going to condemn religious groups (such as the Catholic church) who oppose non-believer community building?

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#229: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:07:28 PM

As a member of the Catholic Church, yes, I do condemn that behavior.

Despite my exposure to those built communities consisting of crap like this, or trying to picket the "Jesus ♥ U" guy off campus.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:09:13 PM by Pykrete

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#230: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:09:10 PM

As I said, they can buy the land at public rates then. If it's on public land then it's considered to be government supported.

No, it's not.

So are you guys going to condemn religious groups (such as the Catholic church) who oppose non-believer community building?

Yes. Although I'm not sure what "community-building" is...

I am now known as Flyboy.
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#231: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:11:47 PM

Putting up a sign, saying that you are not alone for not believing in a god, and giving a website address. That's what I mean by community building.

Signs like that have been protested/removed/etc. on a pretty widespread basis. We're thought of as being jerks for putting up those signs.

My point being, of course, is that if you're going to be thought of as a jerk for doing something as positive as that, you might as well go whole-hog to war because it can't be much worse.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:13:29 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#232: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:14:21 PM

The Catholic Church has a stance on that? News to me.

Be not afraid...
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#233: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:15:07 PM

Oh, that's real nice. "People think I'm a jackass, so I'll be a jackass."

And then you complain when they say you're a jackass.

I am now known as Flyboy.
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#234: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:15:58 PM

Yeah, I've seen enough boiler plate replies (by religious leaders) that such ads were not-constructive as they lead people away from the faith to realize that it's probably a widespread stance.

Mind you it's not only Catholic leaders, positive responses are quite rare.

[up]Pretty much. But like I said. Everybody is being a jackass here. It's pretty much par for the course when it comes to religion or non-religion.

The question is how to best move away from that. I'm weird in that I actually think that culturally powerful institutions have more responsibility than culturally weak institutions.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:18:16 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#235: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:17:46 PM

That doesn't mean it's right. You can't expect to win if your primary strategy is "bring myself down to their level."

And theoretically they're right, in the "it's not constructive" idea. Doesn't mean they can make you take down the signs, though.

I am now known as Flyboy.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#236: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:19:11 PM

I honestly can't think of a time I've had an outright positive response to a billboard. Ever. Unless it was funny.

Nobody hears the smooth wheel, only the squeaks.

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#237: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:20:08 PM

They've had a bit of success with that.

And it's VERY constructive. It's not directly challenging anybodies beliefs (although to be honest, I don't have a problem with that), letting people who might feel alone and isolated that there's a community they can get support from. Lots of constructive things.

That is, if you don't think that religious belief deserves privilege.

Edit: Oh. And you actually generally win when you go BELOW the level of your opponents. How do you think the Republican party is so successful :p

I should restate. AGAIN. This is not my preferred state of affairs. Not by a long-shot. But this is the sad, unfortunate way the world works.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:23:33 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#238: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:24:45 PM

So, rights don't matter so long as everybody is equally miserable in not having them?

Hear that sound? It's me shutting the door on you for being an idiot. Can you win by going below your opponent's level? Sure. Your victory will taste like ash and nobody will like you, though, so I don't see the point.

I should restate. AGAIN. This is not my preferred state of affairs. Not by a long-shot. But this is the sad, unfortunate way the world works.

You keep saying this and I keep not believing you because you apparently don't care so long as you get your way.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:26:10 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#239: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:26:59 PM

Are you willing to have signs next to the crosses stating there is no god? (Even as inappropriate as it is)

And likewise it doesn't seem like you care as long as you get your way. I explained to you why things are the way they are and you don't seem to care.

That's why the privilege needs to die.

Edit: So let's use a common, real-world example. A town nativity scene. So other religious groups want to put up other signs, and a local non-belief group wants to put up "The Solstice is the reason for the season", or something similar and they're denied.

Is this right or wrong?

This is why I say that positive equality is not realistic. Too many privileged assholes in the world.

Edit 2: Actually it's not really that inappropriate. For what these monuments are, I would definitely put up something like, this is the only life we all have. Cherish it, and the others around us. Please don't drink and drive, and drive CAREFULLY.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:32:48 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#240: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:39:14 PM

It's unacceptable when the message is made pretty much exclusively to be a dick — crashing the Christmas parade with vuvuzelas comes to mind.

I'd be okay with the Solstice thing (especially since, you know...it is tongue). The "Message funded by the American Atheists" thing on drunk driving is totally fine — if that's what you guys decide your personal memorial is, it's a pretty damn good one TBH.

Dropping a sign of "NO GOD LOL" next to a small field of crosses kind of drops right back into unacceptable.

edited 18th Sep '11 12:00:22 AM by Pykrete

tropetown Since: Mar, 2011
#241: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:41:04 PM

So let's use a common, real-world example. A town nativity scene. So other religious groups want to put up other signs, and a local non-belief group wants to put up "The Solstice is the reason for the season", or something similar and they're denied.

Seeing as Christmas is a Christian holiday, the other sign is just disrespectful. If it's about an alternative holiday, like Hanukkah, that's fine, but putting up a sign simply to disparage the beliefs of others is, to state it clearly, a dick move. That wouldn't be tolerated with any other religion, and I see no reason that Christians would have to tolerate that, either. Promoting an alternative celebration is one thing, and that would have my full support, but anti-religious propaganda is quite another.

edited 17th Sep '11 11:50:46 PM by tropetown

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#242: Sep 17th 2011 at 11:46:52 PM

Are you willing to have signs next to the crosses stating there is no god? (Even as inappropriate as it is)

I'm willing to allow it. I wouldn't support it.

And likewise it doesn't seem like you care as long as you get your way. I explained to you why things are the way they are and you don't seem to care.

Because your way deprives people of rights and mine gives more people rights. You do it in the name of "this is the only way because we're dumb" and I do it in the name of "we're dumb but we still have to try."

Is this right or wrong?

Edit: misread; I'd say it's right, since, well, it is right.

This is why I say that positive equality is not realistic.

Says you. I refuse to allow it to be taken away because you decide it's not worth trying to do the right thing over. A world where some people have rights and some don't is still better than a world where nobody has rights.

Edit 2: Actually it's not really that inappropriate. For what these monuments are, I would definitely put up something like, this is the only life we all have. Cherish it, and the others around us. Please don't drink and drive, and drive CAREFULLY.

That would make sense...

edited 17th Sep '11 11:48:37 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#243: Sep 18th 2011 at 1:06:32 AM

I also think they did that because they didn't want another fight between Protestants and Catholics like in England.

Do you even know about the Religious wars in Europe? The Pope had England and Scotland —> Great Britain declared Heretical.

Also, I think Tomu and Joyflower would make a cute couple tongue

edited 18th Sep '11 1:06:53 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#244: Sep 18th 2011 at 9:58:08 AM

Again: if the government favors one organization over another-that is, said organization does not have to pay market rates-that's a gift.

I think we all agree that if the Church had put up a sign saying "LOVE STATE TROOPERS MANY OF THEM ARE IN HEAVEN NOW" when given the chance for a memorial, we'd be a bit more appreciative of AA's concerns?

[up] Well, I do need a sugar momma, but I don't think it'd work out ;P

edited 18th Sep '11 9:58:37 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#245: Sep 18th 2011 at 10:04:17 AM

Tomu@The main reasons are I'm conservative and he's a liberal plus I live in California while he's in Georgia.

I think the Athiests of America need to pick battles that are not stupid and make them appear whiny.Besides if the guy's an athiest then I would just put the flag signaling a sense of patriotism and countrymanship

edited 18th Sep '11 10:06:03 AM by joyflower

Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#246: Sep 18th 2011 at 10:05:18 AM

Hop from page 4 The selling land solution would work only if the government made the same deal with all nonprofit organisations.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#247: Sep 18th 2011 at 10:08:14 AM

Ever since Republicans co-opted the flag, I tend to find the insistence on wearing/using the flag kind of obnoxious, so I have a bit of an aversion to it. But, that's never gonna change until non-Conservatives start using it more, so, more power to them I guess.

In any event, let me put it this way. The news media is biased. Their bias isn't necessarily in how they write stories, but in what stories they choose to present. If, for example, the news media chooses to only talk about stories related to something one political party wants to talk about, then that's a form of bias. If the state of Utah is only using public land for things that are relevant to religious interests-like death rituals-then that too is a form of bias. I mean, atheist organizations typically don't put a whole lot of emphasism on death.

I guess the point is, if they're "letting the public do it" because it'd be illegal if they did it themselves, that's pretty much a violation of the establishment clause. It's just a work-around.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#248: Sep 18th 2011 at 11:34:07 AM

Ever since Republicans co-opted the flag, I tend to find the insistence on wearing/using the flag kind of obnoxious, so I have a bit of an aversion to it. But, that's never gonna change until non-Conservatives start using it more, so, more power to them I guess.

No political party owns the flag and I'm frankly insulted that you'd suggest otherwise.

The Republicans will "co-opt the flag" over my dead body.

So AA should be working for positive liberty, rather than idiotic Pyrrhic Villainy nonsense.

I am now known as Flyboy.
TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#249: Sep 18th 2011 at 12:17:21 PM

I'm suggesting that you've already blocked off most positive liberty avenues. Haven't you been paying attention?

The areas where AA could contribute are areas where the state isn't asking for people to contribute.

USAF713 I changed accounts. from the United States Since: Sep, 2010
I changed accounts.
#250: Sep 18th 2011 at 12:21:47 PM

I don't understand your argument. How have I blocked off positive liberty avenues?

I am now known as Flyboy.

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