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Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#51: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:46:31 PM

@Van: And that's the basic principle of Universalism (Part 2 of that post, that is).

edited 14th Sep '11 1:48:03 PM by Balmung

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#52: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:46:40 PM

[up][up][up][up]

Fair enough, but why do they also have to suffer for eternity? I can understand not being invited to God's awesome block party, but its not only not being invited, but also being shoved into hell.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:47:05 PM by Thorn14

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#53: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:47:18 PM

@Thorn:

So what happens to lets say a Hindu man who gives all his effort to charity, never heart a soul, practiced forgiveness and kindness to those around him, and basically practiced everything Jesus taught, but without being Christian.

Ooh, ooh, I know this one!

Amply to thee is opened now the cavern / Which has concealed from thee the living justice / Of which thou mad'st such frequent questioning.

For saidst thou: 'Born a man is on the shore / Of Indus, and is none who there can speak / Of Christ, nor who can read, nor who can write;

And all his inclinations and his actions / Are good, so far as human reason sees, / Without a sin in life or in discourse:

He dieth unbaptised and without faith; / Where is this justice that condemneth him? / Where is his fault, if he do not believe?'

(The answer is "I'm a giant eagle made of souls and there are virtuous pagans in my eye.")

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#54: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:47:20 PM

He loves sinners, they just can't reside with him.

Why not? Who says?

He must send them to Hell, because there's nowhere else for them to go.

What, he can't make a non-tortury place? He's not looking real good on the omnipotence front...

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#55: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:47:52 PM

Thorn@I know that for a fact I have been to Christian schools where you find some obnoxious kids although then again kids in middle school and high schools are immature.I don't deny that people have done hypocritcal things but the thing is you act like I don't realize it or talk to me like I am naive about the world.

vanthebaron Mystical Monkey Master from Carlyle, Il Since: Sep, 2010
Mystical Monkey Master
#56: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:47:54 PM

[up]x8 part of love is unconditional forgiveness

^^ this applys

edited 14th Sep '11 1:49:26 PM by vanthebaron

Untitled Power Rangers Story
Pentadragon Since: Jan, 2001
#57: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:48:18 PM

^ Some consider hell just to be the absence of God, which is indirectly punishment of itself. Never experiencing the eternal truth is suffering in and of itself.

EDIT: Oh wow, that was to Thorn. I might have to wait for this thread to cool down.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:50:05 PM by Pentadragon

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#58: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:50:02 PM

@Karalora: Did you ignore my post about the Lake of Fire in Orthodoxy?

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#59: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:50:05 PM

Spending eternity in an eagle's eye doesn't sound like my idea of a great time.

Also I'm pretty sure Dante's Inferno is just a cool Fan Fiction.

@Joy :I'm not talking about snot nosed children. I'm talking about so called loving Christians condemning homosexuals to death.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:50:56 PM by Thorn14

Pentadragon Since: Jan, 2001
#60: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:50:26 PM

^ It was a pretty damn cool fan fiction.

The main character was a bit too much of a Self Insert Sue though.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:51:07 PM by Pentadragon

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#61: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:50:45 PM

Some consider hell just to be the absence of God

If that's the case, then we're in Hell already. *looks around* Doesn't seem too bad.

Did you ignore my post about the Lake of Fire in Orthodoxy?

I didn't ignore it. I just couldn't make heads nor tails of it; the words morphed inside my head into [Insert Rottweiler's Personal Dictionary Here]. Something about being invited into God's presence. Very funny.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:53:03 PM by Karalora

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#62: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:51:18 PM

Yeah, Dante's Inferno really is just fan fiction.

That said, it's a core part of the Christian culture, orthodoxy/theology be damned. And as I said before, the culture matters more than the orthodoxy.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#63: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:51:42 PM

This was going to be a pre-emptive warning, but it looks like I took too long typing it, and it's going to be an after-the-fact warning instead.

Trying to paint all of Christianity with the broad brush of a single denomination of sect will be treated as flamebaiting. This means that if you are speaking about what some versions but not all Christianity believes, identify the parts you are talking about.

Strawmanning will also be regarded as flamebaiting.

And I'll clue you in: There's very little that all Christian denominations or all Christians believe. "Jesus is God" is about it.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:53:00 PM by Madrugada

vanthebaron Mystical Monkey Master from Carlyle, Il Since: Sep, 2010
Mystical Monkey Master
#64: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:52:07 PM

actually it was repentance forced on him for speaking out again the church;'s control of the economy

Untitled Power Rangers Story
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#65: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:52:34 PM

Of course. I'm aware not all Christians believe that. I was just stating that what I was taught rubbed me the wrong way. Hence why I said I hold Catholicism in a higher opinion.

Pentadragon Since: Jan, 2001
#66: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:53:12 PM

^^ Source, please?

If that's the case, then we're in Hell already. *looks around* Doesn't seem too bad.

Unless God already has some form of presence or representation on earth.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:54:50 PM by Pentadragon

Rottweiler Dog and Pony Show from Portland, Oregon Since: Dec, 2009
Dog and Pony Show
#67: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:55:42 PM

If that's the case, then we're in Hell already. *looks around* Doesn't seem too bad.

Well yes. As Satan says in Paradise Lost, "which way I fly is Hell."

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard
TheEarthSheep Christmas Sheep from a Pasture hexagon Since: Sep, 2010
Christmas Sheep
#68: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:57:39 PM

@However far back, Hell isn't all fire and brimstone. Like someone else said, the absence of God is enough to make it Hell. Whoever said that the Earth now doesn't look too bad, God is still around, working miracles and stuff. We have no idea what would happen if he withdrew from the world. Could be nothing, or the entire planet falls into the sun. We can't know.

Anyway, I've heard it said that some parts of Hell are just wide open fields, full of green grass and nothing else. Anyone who wasn't a bad person, but didn't believe in God/get baptized/whatever would just chill out there forever.

Still Sheepin'
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#69: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:58:22 PM

[up] Depends on how much you believe God is involved in things I guess.

And an entire empty field sounds like a case of And I Must Scream

edited 14th Sep '11 1:59:38 PM by Thorn14

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#70: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:58:50 PM

[up][up]I'd watch it with the strawmen. Not everybody believes that hell is a form of limbo. In fact that's probably a minority position.

Edit: But back on topic, the big problem with sin is that it tends to result in us discussing morality in terms of theology and belief instead of practical terms that might do a better job of advancing the debate.

Even when I agree with a moral someone is saying in theological terms, often there's no hook there to move to the next step.

What's better? To feed the poor or to find them a job?

That sort of thing.

edited 14th Sep '11 2:01:50 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
TheEarthSheep Christmas Sheep from a Pasture hexagon Since: Sep, 2010
Christmas Sheep
#71: Sep 14th 2011 at 2:01:44 PM

[up][up] Hey, it ain't so bad! The ancient greeks had basically the same belief, but that was the ideal scenario!

Still Sheepin'
Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#72: Sep 14th 2011 at 2:10:28 PM

Well yes. As Satan says in Paradise Lost,

Argumentum ad Fanfiction?

"which way I fly is Hell."

Point being, you're not going to horrify this relatively privileged and content gal by saying Hell is just like Earth. It's not a choice between Paradise and Auschwitz; there are whole ranges of conditions inbetween.

Tell you what. If it turns out Hell is just like Earth, dictators and all, and I wind up there for being insufficiently Christian, I promise to fight the bad guys. It's not like they or anything else would be able to kill me at that point, right?

God is still around, working miracles and stuff.

Then God can be in the presence of sin, and there is no excuse for not taking absolutely everyone to Heaven.

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#73: Sep 14th 2011 at 2:10:32 PM

[up][up] The ancient greeks were weird tongue

Me, I'd love an afterlife where you are a sort of Reality Warper of your own world. You can do whatever you want (within reason), and then you can leave your own personal ream to go into the main "hub" of heaven to meet with others, chill with angels, etc.

edited 14th Sep '11 2:10:47 PM by Thorn14

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#74: Sep 14th 2011 at 2:10:41 PM

Karmakin, there is no strawman in stating that "some people believe in Limbo."

I'm not too dumb to notice that you're trying to get other posters in trouble.

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#75: Sep 14th 2011 at 2:32:02 PM

My apologies. I was not intending to try and get anybody in trouble. I just happen to think that a pro-strawman (that is a strawman pretending something universally has a positive component) is just as damaging to a discussion as a negative strawman, which is what you usually see.

One of the problems is that pro-strawmen (I like the term Ironman, or Jelloman myself, depending on the circumstances) arguments are rarely seen outside of religion.

Again, I apologize to Earth.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

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