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Christianity and Sin

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Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#26: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:31:04 PM

@Rott: It made me question whether or not the church is correct. Reading about the witch trials and the crusades only confirmed it. I dont trust the bible either, since it was written by a friend of a friend of a friend. And I dont like what people have used it for.

I'm agnostic because I think we Puny Earthlings can not possibly hope to understand what a greater power may have in mind for us.

@Joy it was just a Lutheran church. It wasn't fire and brimstone but when I heard my very loving, compassionate grandparents tell me that, yes, those who do not worship christ are going to suffer in hell for eternity unless they convert, I lost any desire to care about the christian faith for myself. Others can practice it no problem, more power to them. But I can't support such a teaching.

Plus I can't support anything I do not see without definite proof. Faith is something I have very little of.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:32:40 PM by Thorn14

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#27: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:33:11 PM

Why yes I am.

I'm a big supporter of the concept of rational morality. That is, there are better answers to questions of right and wrong, while the questions are often insanely complicated, and different people can have different priorities, at the end of the day there's at least a language we can use to discuss these things, and at best there are pretty good answers to the basic questions of right and wrong.

Which is why I pretty much reject out of hand arbitrary morality.

Edit: For what it's worth, I fully understand that the belief in hell is basically blasphemy. However, I believe that culture trumps theology every time. Or to paraphrase a really stupid man, we deal with the religion that we have, not the religion that we wish we had.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:34:26 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#28: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:33:41 PM

Well, it depends on if your denomination believes in Good Works (I think that's what the doctrine was called, and I think that it's mostly just Catholics who follow it). In denominations that believe in Good Works, actions as well as faith matter in matters of personal salvation, whereas the Protestant principle of Sola fide states that no matter what a person's action, salvation comes through faith alone.

And then there are Universalists who believe in universal salvation, though the actual Universalist church consolidated with the Unitarian church to form Unitarian Universalism, which is a fair bit separated from mainline Christianity and generally treated as entirely separate.

Pentadragon Since: Jan, 2001
#29: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:35:07 PM

@Karalora: Sin is considered, at least according to Catholicism, an offense against reason, truth and right conscious. If you do not know that what you are doing is immoral or do not feel guilt for your crime, then your actions cannot be considered sinful.

Of course, what is considered moral is much more complicated and generally boils down to what you mentioned. It is rejecting God's love and acting contrary to the Eternal Law. This really isn't that satisfying of an answer, I know, but I don't have a much better answer.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:35:22 PM by Pentadragon

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#30: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:35:15 PM

Sola Fide was what I was taught. I was told a serial rapist could be forgiven and sent into heaven by faith alone, whereas a non faithful paragon of goodness would burn in hell for eternity.

[up] "Sin is considered, at least according to Catholicism, an offense against reason, truth and right conscious. If you do not know that what you are doing is immoral or do not feel guilt for your crime, then your actions cannot be considered sinful. "

And who decides what is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscious? The church?

edited 14th Sep '11 1:36:06 PM by Thorn14

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#31: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:35:22 PM

[up][up][up]And the Catholic church is actually moving away from that concept. As heretical as it is.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:36:29 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
vanthebaron Mystical Monkey Master from Carlyle, Il Since: Sep, 2010
Mystical Monkey Master
#32: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:35:35 PM

[up]x7: god knows as much as your imagination lets him, because that's s/he only place he really exists. we invented the christian god to explain things our ancestors didn't understand

Sin is an apple to authority. the church lays down what is and is not sin (except the parts where they actually follow their damn book). morals of the time (eg: Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) hold little to no ground in the modern world.

@Rott and Joy: don't try to pull that "but what about don't kill and don't steal" crap because those have always been morals of every group of people (civilized or not)

edited 14th Sep '11 1:35:57 PM by vanthebaron

Untitled Power Rangers Story
Pentadragon Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:35:50 PM

^^^ Does not work that way in Catholicism. Good works are needed to enter heaven. Faith is important too, but no all unbelievers go to hell.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:37:14 PM by Pentadragon

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#34: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:36:48 PM

[up]Give it 20 years.

[down]A lot of that stuff, or the emphasis on that stuff came from Vatican II not too long ago. The current structure is walking a lot of the reforms back, including more talk of faith being more important than works.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:38:55 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#35: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:37:02 PM

[up][up]I admit I have a higher opinion of Catholicism, but thats not saying much. They have yet to make up for the Crusades in my opinion. And their strict relationship policies is archaic and leads to problems.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:37:16 PM by Thorn14

joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#36: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:38:05 PM

Mainly the deal is works won't get you into heaven but faith in Christ will.But the works are just your actions telling the world that you are a believer in Christ.It's be good because you want to be the salt of the world and not be good because it will get me into heaven.

Thorn@The Crusades was a bit more complicated than people say about it and it happened centuries ago and the Vatican already apoligized for it already so don't bring it up.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:40:35 PM by joyflower

TheEarthSheep Christmas Sheep from a Pasture hexagon Since: Sep, 2010
Christmas Sheep
#37: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:38:36 PM

@Thorn, top of page. You can't blame a religion for any of its follower's actions, unless they're explicitly stated to be right by its doctrine. Sure, the Bible says to stone witches, but the 'Witch Trials' you're speaking of had more to do with mass hysteria than anything else, and none of the people they killed were actually witches. The Spanish Inquisition had exactly no basis in any doctrine I know of, and its perpetrators will burn in hell with the rest of them.

I've been ninja'd eleven times. It's been 7 minutes. This is ridiculous.

Still Sheepin'
Pentadragon Since: Jan, 2001
#38: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:38:54 PM

@Karmakin I cannot imagine Catholicism without the concept of social justice. It would devastate me if the Church moved toward a concept like that.

@Thorn. I am sorry to hear that. To be honest, I don't think enough has been done either. They are trying to make amends, but it is difficult for some parts of the Church.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:42:49 PM by Pentadragon

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#39: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:40:00 PM

[up][up][up] So what happens to lets say a Hindu man who gives all his effort to charity, never heart a soul, practiced forgiveness and kindness to those around him, and basically practiced everything Jesus taught, but without being Christian.

Should he be punished for worshiping "false gods" and therefore should suffer for ETERNITY?

[up][up] Well I always believed Christ was a cool and chill guy. Its just alot of people who act in his name are assholes. I can't support such a group. Before I went agnostic I just believed in God and Jesus without giving a damn about churches.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:41:32 PM by Thorn14

Pentadragon Since: Jan, 2001
#40: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:40:18 PM

^ No, that would be ridiculous. He goes to heaven.

vanthebaron Mystical Monkey Master from Carlyle, Il Since: Sep, 2010
Mystical Monkey Master
#41: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:41:17 PM

@joy: yep I can be a child rapist and believe in Jesus, so i get to go to heaven. what a load of horseshit. belief should mean just shit, actions should get you into heaven, nothing else. no matter your religion, a truly just god would let any good person in be they La Veyan Satanist or Fundamentalist Christian.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:42:05 PM by vanthebaron

Untitled Power Rangers Story
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#42: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:42:16 PM

@Thorn: Well, that gets tricky, since, evidently, a lot of Hindus actually believe Jesus was an incarnation of an avatar of one of their gods.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:42:58 PM by Balmung

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#43: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:42:24 PM

[up][up][up]Yes, but there's a LOT of people who think otherwise.

The real question here is...what do we do about that? Is it something we should worry about? Does it have any other effects in this world, or is it something relatively harmless?

My beef with the reasonable religious individuals, is that even if they are personally good people, all too often they promote and enjoy the privilege that allows the people who think otherwise to gain a lot more social power than they deserve.

The problem is the privilege.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:42:41 PM by Karmakin

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
joyflower Since: Dec, 1969
#44: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:42:40 PM

No matter how hard we try we will never be perfect in anyway or form that's what the point of Christ's death on the cross.In Hell not everybody will share the same punishment so Hitler will be very much suffering the most.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:44:01 PM by joyflower

TheEarthSheep Christmas Sheep from a Pasture hexagon Since: Sep, 2010
Christmas Sheep
#45: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:43:07 PM

Hey, a li/ren argument! I love these!

It doesn't matter if it's belief or action that gets you into heaven.

If you truly believed in Christ, you'd do what he says.

You'd only do what he says if you believe in them.

Either way, you'd have both if you went to heaven.

Edit: Holy shit people post fast here. This was addressed to vanthebaron.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:44:00 PM by TheEarthSheep

Still Sheepin'
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#46: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:43:48 PM

[up][up] That doesn't really make me feel better. Eternity is a long ass time. Just because I get less pitchforks to the stomach doesn't make up for the fact that its for ETERNITY.

[up] I see ALOT of Christians do alot of Un-Christ like things.

edited 14th Sep '11 1:44:39 PM by Thorn14

vanthebaron Mystical Monkey Master from Carlyle, Il Since: Sep, 2010
Mystical Monkey Master
#47: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:44:06 PM

@joy: 1) Problem of evil

2) a truly loving god wouldn't have hell, he would just forgive without being asked to

Untitled Power Rangers Story
TheEarthSheep Christmas Sheep from a Pasture hexagon Since: Sep, 2010
Christmas Sheep
#48: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:45:05 PM

[up] No he wouldn't, because although he is infinitely loving, he's also infinitely just.

He loves sinners, they just can't reside with him. He must send them to Hell, because there's nowhere else for them to go.

Still Sheepin'
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#49: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:45:10 PM

3)A truly loving, moral deity wouldn't demand to be glorified.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
TheEarthSheep Christmas Sheep from a Pasture hexagon Since: Sep, 2010
Christmas Sheep
#50: Sep 14th 2011 at 1:46:19 PM

[up] God doesn't really demand to be glorified that much. There is a certain amount of humility He wants though, but those just show your respect more than anything else.

Still Sheepin'

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