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Better solution?: Kuudere

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20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#901: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:06:07 PM

@Nocturna: the only "-dere" trope even possibly worth mentioning is tsundere. The rest are completely irrelevant.

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#902: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:09:14 PM

Point. Kuudere is practically a variant of Tsundere, but Yandere is only tangentially related. And Dandere doesn't warrant a mention pretty much anywhere. Cute And Crazy also doesn't really need to be there. But Tsundere definitely does.

Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#903: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:18:20 PM

Okay. I was going off of what was originally in the article. How's this?

Sister Trope to Tsundere (angry outside, sweet-inside, and vice-versa). Compare Not So Stoic and Stoic Woobie. Related to Beneath the Mask.

Edited to reflect [down]

edited 13th Sep '11 5:24:36 PM by Nocturna

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
TTurtle Since: Aug, 2010
#905: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:20:20 PM

@900 - But of course! All we need to do is call this trope Partially Heated Frozen Dinner, and our naming woes will be solved! "Frozen Dinner" is gender-neutral, so no one can complain. Plus, maybe we can persuade Banquet to advertise their TV dinners here.

@896 - More seriously, I wondered this too, but I couldn't think of any (properly-cooked) foods that are cold on the outside, hot on the inside. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but I suspect that if they did exist, they'd be too rare to work as a trope title.

Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#906: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:25:43 PM

[up][up] The original definition called it a Sub-Trope, which is why I classed it as such. But I edited the description (as I think Sister Trope is a better description of the relation between the two).

20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#907: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:26:51 PM

[up][up]"Reverse baked Alaska girl" was tried. It failed.

edited 13th Sep '11 5:27:06 PM by 20LogRoot10

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
TTurtle Since: Aug, 2010
#908: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:33:39 PM

Hey, more seriously, how does Tin Man relate to this trope? Should it be mentioned in the description as a related trope?

redlar Since: Jul, 2009
#909: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:38:19 PM

[up]It's a little different in that Tin Man characters deny having emotions and act as if they don't have them, whereas (Insert New Trope Name Here) is about a character who just acts cold and doesn't show their internal emotions.

I laugh in the face of suffering.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#910: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:47:58 PM

The summery up there under the long name is wrong. It still keeps insisting the cold side is a mask. Sometimes it is, but plenty of the time it isn't. It's two sides, period. Neither side is always fake.

Also, my version of the right up Sandbox.Frozen Flower (I used a random name).

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#911: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:49:31 PM

Ooh, that's kind of nice and poetic.

Hodor
Discovery from A Galaxy Far Far Away Since: Jun, 2011
#912: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:52:33 PM

[up][up]Idea: How about we add a fourth type, the type in question being the mask variation? I know it goes against everything the Rule of Threes stands for, but I think we'll manage. tongue

edited 13th Sep '11 5:52:56 PM by Discovery

Currently reading a Sci-Fi Dystopian Murder Mystery Forbidden Romance Adventure Thriller In Space. Your argument is invalid.
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#913: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:57:33 PM

[up][up][up] I don't like how it's missing the types.

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20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#914: Sep 13th 2011 at 5:58:27 PM

[up][up][up][up]It does? I don't get that vibe(in fact, one of the goals of my writeup was to make sure the mask was presented as optional), but I've been known to think things were obvious when they weren't.

EDIT: Probably should stop using arrows in this thread.

edited 13th Sep '11 5:58:53 PM by 20LogRoot10

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#915: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:00:17 PM

My personal thought is that the types listing isn't really necessary, and can be explained in prose (as I have done), and anything else listed in analysis. The most important thing about this trope is the two different sides to the person, everything else is icing, nice but unnecessary and can probably be moved to analysis.

I think my write up gives the best explanation without trying to assign types, because there are varied different types (which for some reason Eddie associates with anime, so whatever we should probably just ditch them to get this over with regardless) and if were are going to bother with them, then we should have them all, not just the three present there. With this explanation it's very easy to tell if a character is an example (do they have two extremely different sides, one cold and one nice? They fit!).

If I were to add something else I think I would add something about how other characters react to them and the reverse. That could be worthwhile, I'll think about it.

@20 Log Root 10, Yeah it's this whole implication that the warm part is "underneath", as in it's a hidden part. That's the part that really implies "a mask". It might sound like nitpicking, but I really get an "the (cold) outside is fake, the (warm) inside is the real person" vibe from most of the write up, as well as Type 1 and 2. Also, the warm side as we have discussed, isn't always hidden (as in being protected or whatever). Sometimes it's just that you haven't earned the right to be treated kindly by them yet, or they just don't like you. I wouldn't really consider that "hiding" their nice side in that situation.

edited 13th Sep '11 6:07:26 PM by NoirGrimoir

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shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#916: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:13:06 PM

The only thing wrong with Noir's is that it misuses Keet as the gender flipped version of Genki Girl. It's not. It's related, but it's not the Spear Counterpart.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#917: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:13:38 PM

I say we need the types, it clears up confusion and it's not like it's the only trope we have that has types to it.

the types are apart of the trope, removing them means you remove the meaning and context of not only the trope but nearly all the examples resulting in removals of examples which did apply before and still do now. And said examples have no place to go now as it's not a split.

edited 13th Sep '11 6:15:06 PM by Vyctorian

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20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#918: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:13:53 PM

[up][up][up]Good point. Also liking your writeup.

[up]I think Film Grimoir's has the essentials of the types in the writeup; the rest could be split into an analysis page.

[up][up]The tropes identify themselves as such(and Genki Guy's even a redirect), so at the very least it's an understandable mistake.

edited 13th Sep '11 6:17:20 PM by 20LogRoot10

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#919: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:17:05 PM

too put it short if it ain't broke don't fix it, the trope was fine. They only thing that needed to be removed was the Japanese-ness, due to the rename no other changes should be made without first sending it to a new crowner.

The types are not analysis they are borderline subtropes that fall just short of being different enough. Just like Tsun Dere's subtropes. They should be numbered down not merged into a Wall of Text.

edited 13th Sep '11 6:19:34 PM by Vyctorian

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20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#920: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:19:21 PM

Sandbox.Girl Who Acts Very Distant But Is Actually Quite Nice is still available, you want to pursue that route(admittedly, I haven't restored any sort of "related to" paragraph after Eddy nuked it).

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#921: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:20:24 PM

[up] That's fine, I just think the Frozen Flower write up is lacking.

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NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#922: Sep 13th 2011 at 6:35:53 PM

I never Keet and Genki Girl were counterparts, I are just both listed as examples of what the character probably won't ever be. If it bothers people we can change it. I just was trying to think of a similar male character type who was hyper and talkative, since people seem to be so hung up on being gender neutral.

The write up is not wall of text.And all three types are briefly mentioned, just not split off into bullets. Either way even if you do keep all the types, the descriptions of them and everything else seriously needs to be reworded in my opinion because it still implies the cold part is a facade, when that's not always the case. And I would argue that of the types type one is Not So Stoic, Type 2 is just Defrosting Ice Queen and type 3 is Mood-Swinger so there's no point in writing them all out.

edited 13th Sep '11 6:41:24 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Vyctorian ◥▶◀◤ from Domhain Sceal Since: Mar, 2011
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#923: Sep 13th 2011 at 7:10:12 PM

[up]The other types overlap with what was Kuudere and those tropes but they are all still Kuu Dere variants and should be listed.

edited 13th Sep '11 7:11:39 PM by Vyctorian

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NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
#924: Sep 13th 2011 at 7:16:35 PM

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, because I really don't think they do, if you know the core behind the trope. The rest can be inferred. There are so many different types, just having these three isn't very comprehensive, IMO. I would say there are really at least six or so main types and just putting the three would do more harm than good and putting all six would be overkill.

Also, Eddie seems to dislike the types.

edited 13th Sep '11 7:18:30 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#925: Sep 13th 2011 at 7:18:09 PM

Just don't want to drag that stuff into an article that is supposed to be clear and universal. Those terms are neither.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

AlternativeTitles: KuudereTake4
15th Sep '11 3:53:00 PM

Crown Description:

Final crowner for the trope formerly known as Kuudere. Do not add more titles to this crowner.

Total posts: 1,088
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