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Better solution?: Kuudere

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Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#826: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:48:38 AM

I assure you that "cutesy overdoses" and "pretty girls wearing glasses" are hardly "Japanese".

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#827: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:49:25 AM

It's very popular everywhere, but people from Western fandoms don't see the name and latch onto it. It segregates itself and forces out large portions of the user base from using it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
20LogRoot10 Since: Aug, 2011
#828: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:49:37 AM

Regarding the sandbox I made, the description's going to need cleanup if only because its starting point was "kuudere" itself, so I didn't see it as offtopic for this thread(my wanting to lop off the analysis probably is, though). I chose the most awkward name on the list to keep focus on the description; I certainly wasn't expecting someone to splatter it all over the page.

That said, I vote for making kuudere a redirect with a footnote on the page; a fanspeak page would only be needed if we were hardsplitting this trope.

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#829: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:53:03 AM

[up][up] I can't make head nor tails of that post.

[up][up][up] The connotations with the glasses seem to be different but I think there's a reorganisation for all the glasses tropes anyway. Not too sure what happened to that. As for the former? Guess what. No-one else had named it by that point. And you're confusing Moe and Glurge...

... Who came up with glurge, I wonder? Oh, look, an answer. XD

Does this mean that words made up on the internet with no roots whatsoever are acceptable? I'm curious. It says it's spread, but I've never encountered it beyond this site.

edited 13th Sep '11 8:55:10 AM by RainehDaze

Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#830: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:56:54 AM

Once again, we're back to "how does the fact that the Japanese came up with a name for a universal concept stop it from being a universal concept", a question you have yet to come close to answering.

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#831: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:58:02 AM

^^ I think Shima is saying that fans of western works see the name, and assume it's a japanese trope that can't have western examples, and a rename would help with that.

edit: ninja'd

edited 13th Sep '11 9:00:25 AM by acebrock

My troper wall
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#832: Sep 13th 2011 at 8:59:34 AM

[up][up] Answer? It doesn't. It's still a universal concept, just with a Japanese name. It's not like English hasn't spent the past few centuries stealing bits of other languages to create a short, concise term. The only explanation I can see is people being either xenophobic or terrified of a word. That, and not stopping to consider that it's a language built on thievery.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:00:24 AM by RainehDaze

AnnoR "Of course, Satsuki-sama." from Honnouji Academy Since: Sep, 2010
"Of course, Satsuki-sama."
#833: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:00:49 AM

[up][up][up]It doesn't stop it from being a universal concept, though it's far more popular in Japan then it is anywhere else. The Japanese are, however, the ones who came up with a name for it. There's absolutely no way to describe Tsundere in a short, simple way befitting of a trope name. Therefore, we go with a name that is becoming widely recognized to describe the character type. And don't go saying "it's opaque and no one knows it", Tsundere is spreading across the internet quite quickly and beyond the anime and manga fandom.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:01:10 AM by AnnoR

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."
Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#834: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:01:08 AM

Yes, because fear and hatred are obviously the only reasons why anyone would want to change an opaque, little-known, foreign-language article title on an English-language wiki whose primary guideline is clarity.

And yes, English is a back-alley thug when it comes to other languages. It follows other languages down dark streets, hit them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for new words all the time. But for a word to be a real loan word, it has to be in general use. These words, with few exceptions, are not in general use. Ask some random person in a grocery store what "Tsundere" means and you'll get blank stares.

Which, by the way, is why the constant comparisons to phrases like "Deus ex Machina" are so silly.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:04:47 AM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#835: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:03:53 AM

[up] No, they're the only reasons people have for not clicking the damn link. Seriously, if they did that we wouldn't have such a mysterious imbalance. There's nothing in the description saying 'Japanese only', the examples as they are obviously aren't Japanese only*

, a non-English name doesn't inherently mean non-English in other tropes... seriously? They're not reading it if that's the result. >_>

edited 13th Sep '11 9:05:27 AM by RainehDaze

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#836: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:04:25 AM

Not that it matters but so far as I know Kuudere was also coined in Japan along with several other words used to define the same content. Meaning it still has a problem, but not the one you're ascribing to it.

Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#837: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:05:45 AM

No, they're the only reasons people have for not clicking the damn link. Seriously, if they did that we wouldn't have such a mysterious imbalance.

We also wouldn't have it if certain groups could get over their Fan Myopia, but I don't see that happening any time soon, either.

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#838: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:07:31 AM

This is not 'we are using it for the sake of using it'. This is 'we are using it because it is a term and we don't have a term for it ourselves'.

[up][up] Is Savant or someone else with Japanese knowledge around to go ask 2ch or somewhere about all this?

edited 13th Sep '11 9:08:17 AM by RainehDaze

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#839: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:12:16 AM

What are we going to do with the Kuudere-renaming effort again?

@Shimaspawn: By that logic, that would mean that we shouldn't "saddle" tropes that are Older Than Dirt with English names, since they predate the English language. Just saying.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:13:10 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#840: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:12:59 AM

If the name is a term already in use in the world, it is working. 'In the world', by the way, also means 'in a specific fandom.' If more than one term is used for it, we have redirects to use or we may need an additional article. A lot of times, two terms mean two subtly different tropes. The article should have the title with the meaning that reaches (is used by) the widest number of people. The redirects are there for the specific fandoms.

If the name is already an established term in the outside world, that's a good reason to keep it. The strength of this argument depends on how widely the term is in use. The article should have the name with the meaning that reaches (is used by) the widest number of people.

Renaming guidelines and the renaming guidelines sandbox... hmm...

All other things being equal, keeping the current name is better - if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Lack of a good argument for renaming is a good argument for not renaming (and the converse is not true). This means that if someone brings up an argument for renaming, pointing out weaknesses in it stands on its own as an argument for keeping the current name.

Sandbox, this one. Admittedly, no-one's touched it since July. And that was Eddie...

It ain't broke. If the name has good inbound links, it is working. If the name is being accurately used around the wiki to refer to the trope, it is working. If it doesn't have unnecessary complaining and gushing, it's working. You can get information on these things by clicking the 'related to...' button on the trope's page.

Have we had the debate about whether these're working or not, yet?

edited 13th Sep '11 9:13:52 AM by RainehDaze

Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#841: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:15:18 AM

You missed one: Eddie owns the wiki. Eddie wants a rename. Eddie can get a rename when and if he wants one, regardless of your opinions otherwise, as is his right as the owner of the site.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:16:00 AM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
AnnoR "Of course, Satsuki-sama." from Honnouji Academy Since: Sep, 2010
"Of course, Satsuki-sama."
#842: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:17:08 AM

Because we all know that's a good way to run a wiki.

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#843: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:17:57 AM

Did you think that the entire point of what I'm saying is to convince you? Umm, no, it's in the hope that Eddie'll see and go back on his decision to force renames and leave things to the normal process. No point instituting rules if you're going to then ignore them, is there?

edited 13th Sep '11 9:18:52 AM by RainehDaze

Worldmaker Title? What Title? Since: Jun, 2010
Title? What Title?
#844: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:25:26 AM

Because we all know that's a good way to run a wiki.

It is if you're the one doing the primary financing, and in whose name all the paperwork exists. As owner, he is allowed to do as he pleases with his property. You don't have to like it, but he does have the right to do as he likes.

No point instituting rules if you're going to then ignore them, is there?

As someone else pointed out in this thread, they aren't rules; they are merely guidelines.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:26:40 AM by Worldmaker

Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#845: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:26:24 AM

^^^ And obviously letting terms that are mostly known within anime circles be attached to some of the biggest tropes is going to be helpful in drawing more users from other fanoms to the wiki.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:27:45 AM by acebrock

My troper wall
AnnoR "Of course, Satsuki-sama." from Honnouji Academy Since: Sep, 2010
"Of course, Satsuki-sama."
#846: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:29:33 AM

[up][up]That still doesn't make it a good way to maintain the wiki, so it's kind of a moot point. Just because h can do it doesn't mean he should.

[up]If people are so intolerant that they can't bear to see a Japanese word, then I don't see why we should care about them.

"Oh, dear. The toad, the monkey, and the dog have all screwed up."
acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#847: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:34:18 AM

^ That could be applied to people who can't stand to see them go away, as well. Also, who said anything about intolerance? They could just be thinking this is a site about anime and be driven off by that.

Edit: can we please stop reading suggestions of intolerance into posts where it's not mentioned? It's getting annoying

edited 13th Sep '11 9:35:42 AM by acebrock

My troper wall
FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#848: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:36:19 AM

Well, this seems to be deadlocked. I also see some pretty obvious filibustering.

So, here's what is going to happen. The Kuudere article will be turned into a fan-speak, definition only, no examples page.

This thread should turn its attention to drafting an article which describes this character type, if it can. The definition will be media-agnostic. When the draft settles out, we can return to the task of coming up with a catchy title for the character type.

The crowner will be locked and detached. Next step is to draft the new article in the Sandbox. Use this one: Sandbox.Kuudere Replacement Draft.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#849: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:38:20 AM

[up][up][up][up] This is the same logic that leads to conclusions such as 'there are too many anime examples'*

and 'we shouldn't have anime-looking images because they scare people off'* .

Seriously, I don't see how they're harming bringing people in. There are hundreds of tropes, right? How many universal tropes have Japanese names? Six or seven. That's not a major concern. The major concern is that everyone exaggerates how damaging it is.

[up][up] It's called Tv Tropes and they think it's an anime site? That's... slightly concerning. How the hell does logic fail that badly?

[up] The description is media-agnostic. Japanese isn't a medium, Eddie. Anime, manga, visual novels, literature, live-action, film, and games all manage to get acknowledgement across countries.

edited 13th Sep '11 9:39:25 AM by RainehDaze

FastEddie Since: Apr, 2004
#850: Sep 13th 2011 at 9:41:34 AM

Stop quibbling. It is getting really boring. The article will not be about anime. Clear enough?

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

AlternativeTitles: KuudereTake4
15th Sep '11 3:53:00 PM

Crown Description:

Final crowner for the trope formerly known as Kuudere. Do not add more titles to this crowner.

Total posts: 1,088
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