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Using Japanese honorifics in prose - Yay or Nay?

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JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
#26: Apr 30th 2012 at 2:46:43 PM

[up] Selective translation can be troubling, particularly when used in a work written by someone not of a particular culture, but it's extremely tricky to properly translate something when certain shades of context would be lost without a given distinction. (This is coming from someone who is no fan of gratuitous Japanese themselves, for numerous reasons.)

[up][up] The context in which sensei is used in English, as you admit, is very particular. I was referring to calling one's teachers Mr., Mrs. or Ms. X.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#27: Apr 30th 2012 at 3:21:05 PM

Selective translation can be troubling, particularly when used in a work written by someone not of a particular culture, but it's extremely tricky to properly translate something when certain shades of context would be lost without a given distinction.

True, but I prefer to err on the side of approximation. And in practice, it's not like most people only leave the stuff that literally cannot be precisely translated untranslated anyway.

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#28: Apr 30th 2012 at 3:51:08 PM

I personally think you should either translate all honorifics or none of them, and there are certain honorifics that you can't really precisely translate. -san as Mr./Mrs. works, but you never say 'Mr. firstname' in English, and first vs. last name address is its own spectrum of meaning, so doing that loses you the case 'firstname-san'. (Never mind that a student referring to a peer as 'Mr. Lastname' in an school context would be hopelessly formal in the US, but 'lastname-san' is quite normal in Japanese.) In English, it's also relatively normal for a student to refer to a teacher just as 'Mr. Lastname', where Japanese would use -sensei. And others, like -chan, are lost entirely, while -sama can only really be translated as some feudal-esque 'Lord X' title, which is very inappropriate for a lot of cases in which you would use -sama. This in mind, I think dialog from Japanese characters, if it's using Translation Convention or coming from a translated work, should just use the honorifics. Of course, using it in the narrator's voice, in a work written in English, is wrong.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#29: Apr 30th 2012 at 4:55:16 PM

That's part of what I mean about selective translation, though: honorifics aside, the rules of grammar in Japanese are still different from English. So why the problem with converting, say, "Firstname-San" to "Mr. Lastname", when you'll be adjusting for other differences in grammar?

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#30: Apr 30th 2012 at 5:07:35 PM

I personally prefer to read text that retains the honorifics and the nuances in social meaning they provide. There's something to be said for translation as a context shift entire from one language to the other, but any such context shift will have to lose some meaning, and I prefer the greatest possible retention of original meaning to keeping the translated work purely in the target language. Translation is a matter of accessibility to others; we translate the language for the benefit of people who don't know Japanese, but anyone who's reading a translated work realistically already knows what the honorifics mean, and if they don't it's possible to figure out from context. And sure, you could translate some honorifics but not others, but even the ones with decent approximations aren't perfect; 'Lastname-san' and 'Mr. Lastname' are different in their connotations, even though they'd be used in many analogous situations. I prefer to keep as much original meaning as possible. (Eventually I'm going to learn Japanese so I can actually read/listen to the originals, but that has to wait for the moment.)

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#31: Apr 30th 2012 at 5:11:57 PM

Well, like I said, it's partially a matter of preference: I prefer to err on the side of approximation rather then do just a partial translation.

And for the record, this isn't a thread about translating works.

alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#32: Apr 30th 2012 at 5:39:44 PM

True enough.

For works written in English but incorporating Japanese characters who speak in Translation Convention, I would say use them for dialog, for the same reasons as above. If the dialog is in English in-universe, then don't use them unless the character, speaking English, is using them. Don't use them in narration ever, unless it's basically following the thoughts of a character who's using them.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Akagikiba Surfing the forums from Midwest Since: Feb, 2012
Surfing the forums
#33: Apr 30th 2012 at 6:12:57 PM

If the characters are Japanese and are speaking Japanese but the story is in English, they shouldn't use Japanese honorifics. One of my favorite video game series- Persona- uses Japanese honorifics in the dialogue and its very distracting. I wish Atlus USA would stop writing the dialogue like that.

Rynnec Killing is my business Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
Killing is my business
#34: Apr 30th 2012 at 7:23:39 PM

I don't mind Atlus keeping the honorifics. It's a game set in Japan after all. Besides, they need a way to not refer to the Player Character by name.

As for using honorifics in prose; If your work is set in Japan (or an equivalent thereof) I say go for it. As long as you've studied the language to use it correctly.

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Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#35: May 1st 2012 at 7:08:11 AM

I tend to use it exclusively in dialogue, for characters born and raised in Japan...and under stress. They also occasionally interject phrases in Japanese (some of which are pretty obscure).

Nous restons ici.
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#36: May 2nd 2012 at 12:05:30 AM

Also, consider your audience. If your audience is mainstream, do not leave them untranslated except for very specific circumstances — if there is no translation convention going on at all, then the implicit rule is that anything in a language other than English is something the audience is not expected to understand. (There may be a Bilingual Bonus if you happen to understand Japanese, but the story is not written to require it). This is generally the right thing for a story with a tight viewpoint of someone who does not understand Japanese.

If you're translating for a non-japanophile audience, translate the whole thing, or you're just adding further confusion.

A brighter future for a darker age.
breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#37: May 5th 2012 at 11:26:10 PM

I think it's perfectly fine to use the honorifics. In dialogue, between Japanese characters it makes sense, and in third person narrative from the perspective of a Japanese character, it makes sense. It might start to become weird if it is in third person from a character who does not use the honorifics in universe.

Also to note, it's amusing to me when you have one-way use of two systems of honorifics in the same conversation with someone Japanese in real life modern business relations. Not sure if anybody here has more experience about it, but in real life, Japanese people tend to try to address you with their honorific system even if you are not Japanese and they don't particularly mind when you use your own system to address them as well, so long as you keep the same level of formality. The chance of offence is there though if they think you are being too informal in your own honorific system.

edited 5th May '12 11:27:35 PM by breadloaf

joeyjojo Happy New Year! from South Sydney: go the bunnies! Since: Jan, 2001
Happy New Year!
#38: May 8th 2012 at 2:13:44 AM

[up]Makes sense.

Basically if your characters are japanese or fans of japanese cultual using japanese honorific is fine.

If you're writing a story, say a historic novel set in medieval germany and you use japanese honorifics. No so much.

edited 8th May '12 8:41:21 AM by joeyjojo

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alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#39: May 8th 2012 at 8:35:56 AM

Yeah, I like honorifics but don't use them out of place.

I've actually got this strange idea for a Naruto fic, which would transplant the story into pseudo-Germany instead of pseudo-Japan, then rewrite the linguistic base to use German instead of Japanese. Then use German loanwords with the same frequency that mediocre Naruto authors use Japanese loanwords. See whether any of them can read it. tongue

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#40: May 8th 2012 at 1:49:31 PM

The character I am writing is pretty much a westerner who had been adopted by Japanese people, and, erm, is not too well in the head.

Should I include honorifics in his speech, given his fascination with Japan's past is pretty integral to the character?

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alethiophile Shadowed Philosopher from Ëa Since: Nov, 2009
Shadowed Philosopher
#41: May 8th 2012 at 3:03:00 PM

If the character would be using honorifics in-universe, then yes. Otherwise, no.

Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
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